'Francis Dubreuil' rose reviews and comments

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'Francis Dubreuil' rose Reviews & Comments

My HMF:

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Discussion id : 118-684 most recent 23 OCT 19 SHOW ALL

Initial post 13 OCT 19 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

For HubertG. I note your 'Francis Dubreuil' reference just added. Are you having difficulty in adding The Observer references? This publication is listed and contains other references, such as 'Rosy Morn' and 'Queen of Hearts'.	REPLY

Reply #1 of 6 posted 13 OCT 19 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

Yes. I can only add references to publications that I've already added, which is pretty limited. So when I type in "The Observer" or contains "Observer" (with and without upper case O), and then search, nothing comes up. Even when I search for begins with "The" it generates a list of 'The ...etcs' but no "The Observer". It's been like that for a while but was fine before. Previously if I searched for a publication and it wasn't in the database it would say not found and then show a tab saying add new publication (or similar) but no such tab appears now.

By the way, I found the Francis Dubreuil reference interesting because of the crooked stems and it reminded me of "Kombacy Elyena". That's still a mystery what that could be.

Reply #2 of 6 posted 17 OCT 19 by HMF supporting member

HMF Admin

Well this was a weird one ! This issue has been resolved and you are now able to select all publications. Please do not hesitate to contact the support dept with issues of this nature.	REPLY

Reply #3 of 6 posted 17 OCT 19 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

Reply #4 of 6 posted 19 OCT 19 by HMF supporting member

scvirginia

Reply #5 of 6 posted 23 OCT 19 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

.	REPLY

Reply #6 of 6 posted 23 OCT 19 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

See reply 2	REPLY

Discussion id : 90-844 most recent 6 JUL 18 SHOW ALL

Initial post 12 FEB 16 by true-blue

Soupert & Notting 1909-10 catalogue p.23 Francis Dubreuil (Dubreuil 1895) cramoisi pourpré velouté, reflets cerise et amarante, fl.tr.gr......vig. (crimson, velvet purple, cherry and amaranth reflexes, very big flower, vigorous.)	REPLY

Reply #1 of 16 posted 13 FEB 16 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

Reply #2 of 16 posted 10 JUN 18 by HMF supporting member

scvirginia

Bob, you wonderful Canadian...

Is there any possibility that you could get your hands (or eyes) on a copy of the 1914 Annual of the Rose Society of Ontario? There is a color photo of a bouquet containing 'Francis Dubreuil' along with four other roses.

There is an online scan at Biodiversity Heritage Library, but the photo is blurry and leaves much to be desired.

I hope you are well,
Virginia

Reply #3 of 16 posted 13 JUN 18 by true-blue

Wow what a find! Unfortunately I can't have any access to that. But if it's any consolation, I doubt if the original copy would be any better. I tried to extract the image but it's blurry as you said....	REPLY

Reply #4 of 16 posted 13 JUN 18 by HMF supporting member

scvirginia

Thanks, Bob- I thought you might have a "magic source", so I delayed posted that photo until I knew you didn't. You're probably right that the photo's likely to be blurry in all of the annuals.

I think I've mentioned this before, but my favorite candidate for the real 'Francis Dubreuil' is the Aussie foundling, "Kombacy Elyena". A lot of similarities (at least I think so), including some controversy over fragrance.

Cheers,
Virginia

Reply #5 of 16 posted 13 JUN 18 by true-blue

No more magic source. I checked Kombacy Elyena. Intriguing rose, though the size doesn't seem to correspond to the six feet or more height, if memory serves me right....	REPLY

Reply #6 of 16 posted 14 JUN 18 by HMF supporting member

Margaret Furness

Reply #7 of 16 posted 14 JUN 18 by HMF supporting member

billy teabag

Reply #8 of 16 posted 14 JUN 18 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

I think 'Francis Dubreuil' is the sole dark red rose at the bottom. The flower amongst the white ones could be General MacArthur, or perhaps a Chatenay which is a bit in shadow as it looks a bit dark pink and scrolled, but I don't think it's FD. It would be a hand coloured photo, so the value is in the form more so than the colour. What do others think?	REPLY

Reply #9 of 16 posted 14 JUN 18 by HMF supporting member

billy teabag

That's my opinion also. I think the only 'Francis Dubreuiul' bloom is the lower, deeper coloured one. General MacArthur tends to open like the red rose on the right, with the central petals standing up while the outer petals reflex so that for a time there is this separation between the central and outer petals.	REPLY

Reply #10 of 16 posted 14 JUN 18 by HMF supporting member

scvirginia

from The 1914 Annual of the Rose Society of Ontario, p. 31:
"The Lumiere Plates
The heartiest thanks of the Society are due to Sir Edmund Osier, M.P., and to Mr. J. T. Moore of Moore Park, for their great kindness in allowing Mr. Freemantle, who prepared the slides, to show the lovely lumieres or sun-taken color photographs of flowers grown by Mr. Allan in Sir Edmund's conservatory at Craigleigh, and of roses grown by Mr. Bryson at Moore Park. They elicited the warmest admiration and were shown by request on more than one occasion. By the kindness and generosity of Mr. Moore, four of those in his possession appear in this Annual. This intricate and wonderful process was exemplified in its highest development by Mr. Freemantle's skill and the flowers were most realistic in the truth of their colors, painted by Nature herself. We have gone far in photographing in natural colors, and Mr. Freemantle has brought the art to something undreamed of only a few years ago."

About Lumieres: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autochrome_Lumière

These were color photographs, and it seems that the color reproduction was very good. There may have been some color "touch-ups" by the photo-engravers for the purpose of publication, however.

I agree that the dark red bloom near the bottom is 'Francis Dubreuil', and am on the fence about the bloom surrounded (and obscured) by the white roses.

Virginia

Reply #11 of 16 posted 14 JUN 18 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

That's fascinating about the Lumiere slides. Imagine if there were still more of those slides in the possession of one of the families of those mentioned, and there was a cache of Francis Dubreuil ones.	REPLY

Reply #12 of 16 posted 5 JUL 18 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

I've found and posted a couple of illustrations of 'Francis Dubreuil' from the Dingee catalogues.
Here's the description from the 1898 'New Guide to Rose Culture' which accompanies the illustration.

"Novelties in Roses.
... Francois Dubreuil. This is a grand new variety of great merit. The flowers are unusually large, double and full, and in color are deep vivid crimson, with rich velvety shadings. The buds are large, long and pointed; splendid for cutting. It is a strong, vigorous grower and a free continuous bloomer. Fine for open-ground work."

Reply #13 of 16 posted 5 JUL 18 by true-blue

It's funny how the drawings are so different......	REPLY

Reply #14 of 16 posted 5 JUL 18 by true-blue

Hubert, I enlarged your uploaded photos. Hope you don't mind. Great job!	REPLY

Reply #15 of 16 posted 6 JUL 18 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

True-Blue, no not at all, looks good. Just looking at these Dingee catalogue illustrations the consistent characteristic is the slightly recurving petal edges; and they aren't as long-budded as the Rosen-Zeitung painting makes out. This recurving matches the Garden Illustrated 1906 photo, but less so the Betten engraving. I've come to appreciate these hokey little catalogue drawings more and more, because even if they aren't 'naturalistic', they are useful if you look at them in context and compare them to other illustrations of the same type.

Reply #16 of 16 posted 6 JUL 18 by true-blue

Thanks for pointing that out to me. I can finally see :-)	REPLY

Discussion id : 111-968 most recent 5 JUL 18 HIDE POSTS

Initial post 5 JUL 18 by true-blue

Another one:

FRANK CANT & Co. 1897 - Colchester, UK

We devote our whole time and attention to the cultiva- tion of Roses, and therefore can give better value for money than any other firm. We make a special study of all kinds of stocks on which Roses are worked, and are prepared to give our customers the advantage of our experience.
The Summer of 1897 having been so exceedingly dry here, the new Roses of 1895 and 1896 have not been seen at their best, but we have seen fine flowers of the following sorts, and we strongly recommend them :

Charlotte Gillemot, H.T.
Francis Dubreuil, T.
Hellen Keller, H.P.
Mad.AbelChatenay,H.T.
Marjorie, H.T. 
Mrs. W. J. Grant, H.T.
Princess Bonnie, H.T.
Tom Wood, H.P.
Souv. de Mad. Eugenie Verdier. H.T.
Souv. de President Carnot, H.T.
Sylph, T.

Same catalogue, page 14
Francis Dubreuil (T.), {Dubreuil, 1895), very vigorous; flowering abundantly; flowers large, beautiful in the bud ; colour velvety crimson; Habit of Growth, free.

Reply #1 of 2 posted 5 JUL 18 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

Thanks True Blue. Reference added.	REPLY

Reply #2 of 2 posted 5 JUL 18 by true-blue

Welcome!	REPLY

Discussion id : 90-931 most recent 8 MAR 16 SHOW ALL

Initial post 15 FEB 16 by true-blue

Graham Stuart Thomas Rosebook 1994 edition p.165

'Francis Dubreuil'. Dubreuil, France, 1894. One of the mysteries among roses is why this superlative, unfading, darkest-crimson variety has been neglected for almost a century. The shapely, fragrant blooms occur in midsummer and again later amid good folio on a compact bust,3 feet by 2 feet.
Rosenzeitung,1896, Plate3

Comment: This seems more like Barcelona's description. I wonder if anyone has the 1st edition of this book (before the wrong ID controversy at Sangerhausen) and see if the entry for Francis Dubreuil exists and if so does it differ from this one.....

Reply #1 of 4 posted 16 FEB 16 by HMF supporting member

billy teabag

Hi True Blue
Graham Stuart Thomas doesn't have a Tea Rose section in either 'The Old Shrub Roses' or 'Shrub Roses of Today', and 'Francis Dubreuil doesn't appear in the index of either book. Climbing Roses Old and New does have a Noisette and Tea section but 'Francis Dubreui' isn't listed or indexed in this one either.
I don't think there's any doubt that the rose he described in The Graham Stuart Thomas Rose Book is the Sangerhausen one that everyone has been growing under the name Francis Dubreuil since the 1970s - the rose that some have equated with 'Barcelona'.
Graham Stuart Thomas' collection of Teas were planted in the garden at Mottisfont Abbey, and Mottisfont's "Francis Dubreuil" is the same as all the other roses going under this name in recent times.

Reply #2 of 4 posted 16 FEB 16 by true-blue

Reply #3 of 4 posted 8 MAR 16 by Prosopis

Would be grateful if my confusion re: FD [aka Barcelona??] could be resolved! Roses Unlimited describes FD as Very Fragrant; HelpMeFind as (almost) None ?

I have had 2 Memorial Days, that to my nose, were exceedingly and pleasingly fragrant, and which Roses Unlimited let go without any rating at all. Not even an "f" grade!

I wonder if RU and my sense of fragrance are somehow wired differently? I have purchased their plants before, and of all the vendors I have dealt with [Rogue River, Vintage, and High Country] RU plants have proved the best value and quality for me by far. So, I tend to trust their evaluations quite a bit! Hence my quandary!

Elsewhere, too, HMF describes Mme. Abel Chatenay as not (strikingly) fragrant, while GS Thomas finds her fragrance to be "one of the most piercing". Why this extraordinary difference of opinion?

I have been very pleased with a Eugene d' Beauharnais that blooms well indoors and out in a 5 gallon pot for years and should like to get a Louis XIV, which is a seedling of Gen. Jacq., I read, and similar in constitution. However, like Francis D/Barcelona, there seems to be some uncertainty as to provenance: Louis XIV <Nigrette>. Should be grateful for clarification on the true-to-type plant and where to get it.

Many thanks.

Reply #4 of 4 posted 8 MAR 16 by true-blue

Hi there,
The "original" tea rose, Francis Dubreuil was scentless as far as we can ascertain, though some "English" references mention fragrance.
What you are getting in the US, is Barcelona, a 1932 fragrant Hybrid Tea, by Kordes, misidentified in late 70s, as Francis Dubreuil and sold as such.
As far as we know, the original Francis Dubreuil is a lost rose.
For more practical information, I'd suggest asking your questions on the Antique Rose forums:
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/rosesant

Concerning Fragrance:
Fragrance is subjective. Many people cannot smell certain rose fragrances (such as tea). Also if the conditions are not right, i.e. humidity, temperature, windiness etc, the rose fragrance cannot be appreciated...