PhotoComments & Questions 
Maman Cochet  rose photo courtesy of member HubertG
Discussion id : 113-138
most recent 7 AUG 19 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 19 SEP 18 by Margaret Furness
Watch out for friends who are compulsive deadheaders... Fortunately since it's close to the ground, it may be relatively safe.
Reply #1 of 30 posted 19 SEP 18 by HubertG
I'll be keeping a close eye on this one, Margaret. I'm more concerned with possums and anything else that nibbles, to be honest.
Reply #2 of 30 posted 20 SEP 18 by HubertG
After such a long dry spell, it rained fairly heavily overnight, and so not wanting to risk the whole thing rotting, I felt I had no choice but to remove all the petals. It was rather a pity really, but at least it revealed an otherwise normal Maman Cochet bloom.
Reply #3 of 30 posted 20 SEP 18 by HubertG
I took a few photos. There were a few stamens on the flower but it didn't look as if any of the pollen sacs had opened
Reply #4 of 30 posted 20 SEP 18 by Margaret Furness
Based on advice from various Oz rose-breeders, I remove all petals but one (that one helps to find the flower later) and the stamens from flowers I pollinate, so there's pretty well nothing left to attract bees. I put a coloured twist-tie around the stem to help find the hip later on. Warren M also cuts one sepal across to show himself that he has pollinated the flower.
Anticipating your question: no, I haven't bred anything worth releasing. There are enough mediocre roses out there already!
Reply #5 of 30 posted 21 SEP 18 by HubertG
Yes, this wasn't fertilised in the 'proper' way because it was already open and exposed when I discovered it, so any future progeny can't be certain of their father. However that doesn't really matter that much to me because anything I get from this will still be a "seedling of Maman Cochet" which is pretty special. Although, I daresay that if the Lorraine Lee cross took, that rose is distinctive enough that I'd think I'd be able to discern some qualities of it in any seedlings.
The bread tags are a good idea because you can write the date and cross in pencil on them, and if you use a colour that stands out it's easy to find.
Reply #6 of 30 posted 7 OCT 18 by HubertG
After two and a half weeks the receptacle is slowly swelling. It seems to have taken. Fingers crossed!

The second photo is at the four week mark.

The third photo was taken only 10 days after the second. It seems quite remarkable to me how quickly this hip is swelling. If Maman Cochet really is a cross from Mme. Lombard, I imagine that this is a trait (had Maman been fertile in the normal way) inherited from Mme. Lombard.
Reply #7 of 30 posted 30 DEC 18 by HubertG
At the 3 1/2 month mark the sepals have dried and some fallen off, and the hip is just beginning to turn a little yellow.
Reply #8 of 30 posted 8 FEB 19 by HubertG
This was taken 4th Feb, 2019 , so at about the 4 1/2 month mark. It is nearly ripe. I find the little 'bulge' where the stem joins the hip rather interesting. I can't say I've noticed this characteristic on any Tea Rose before and I wonder if it hints at a bit of 'something else' in 'Maman Cochet's background. The Cochet roses do have that distinctive squarish receptacle so perhaps it's somehow connected to this feature.
Edit: Come to think of it, Safrano can have somewhat pear-shaped hips.
Reply #9 of 30 posted 8 FEB 19 by Patricia Routley
As does "Souvenir d'un Ami (in Australia)".
Reply #10 of 30 posted 8 FEB 19 by HubertG
That's very interesting. Billy Teabag's 2012 photo (id208258) displays this well.
This is just somewhat idle speculation but, considering that 'Mme de Tartas' appears as a grandparent on both sides of 'Maman Cochet', I wonder if the Australian "Souvenir d'un Ami" is really the original 'Mme de Tartas' (especially since it was sold as this in the US).

Incidentally, Patricia, 'Mme. Caroline Testout' isn't showing up in the 1st generation descendants list for 'Mme de Tartas'.
Reply #11 of 30 posted 13 MAR 19 by HubertG
Just an interesting follow-up on my 'Maman Cochet' fruiting:- a new shoot sprouted about 2 inches away from where this hip developed. Today (13/3/19) I noticed this new flower had a normal set of pistils and stamens yet again. I hadn't expected this. To be honest I had hoped that similar fertile flowers might arise from the stem of the original hip but I had not expected this would occur again from further down the branch. Because an apparently fertile flower of 'Maman Cochet' is so extremely rare, I wonder whether this stem has in fact sported to a new fertile form. Unfortunately, when I discovered this new flower it had been badly rained on, but I removed the petals and gave it some cover, so will try to try to pollinate it tomorrow. I should add that all the other flowers on other parts of the plant appear in the usual way with crowded rosette centres.
Reply #12 of 30 posted 13 MAR 19 by Margaret Furness
With that sort of luck, you don't need to bet on a horse!
Reply #13 of 30 posted 13 MAR 19 by HubertG
Haha, true! I will take a lotto ticket though. I only wish I'd known in advance so I could have weeded. ;-)
I actually considered using 'Black Caviar'/'Astrid Gräfin von Hardenberg' pollen on it tomorrow, but that can ball like 'Maman Cochet' so I'm planning on using 'Comtesse de Labarthe', maybe 'Safrano'.
But seriously, one fertile flower is more than one in a million, so the odds of two are astronomical. It must be a genetic mutation on that branch.
Reply #14 of 30 posted 13 MAR 19 by Margaret Furness
Get it budded next December, to decrease the risk of losing it!
Reply #15 of 30 posted 14 MAR 19 by HubertG
Yes, that's a good idea, I will do. I put 'Comtesse de Labarthe' pollen on it this morning. Even though it had been open for probably more than a day, it was worth trying to make a cross with another Tea. Both had reputations as hedging roses, and 'Comtesse de Labarthe' also has the advantage of dropping its petals cleanly. I didn't bother remove the stamens from the 'Maman Cochet' as they didn't look as if they'd opened.
Reply #16 of 30 posted 6 APR 19 by HubertG
Three weeks later the cross with 'Comtesse de Labarthe' seems to have taken. It's interesting to see how quickly it has grown, which the previous 'Maman Cochet' hip seemed to do as well.
Reply #17 of 30 posted 14 APR 19 by HubertG
Today the first seedling sprung up from my first 'Maman Cochet' hip, exactly five weeks after planting it (with no fridge treatment). After reading the 1892 article by A. Williams (Brisbane) about how he planted his seeds as soon as they are ripe and gets a good number of seedlings after 5-6 weeks, I decided to hedge my bets and cut the ripe hip in half, planting one half immediately and storing the other half in the fridge. There were lots of seeds, about 60 in just one half hip, some quite small. I'll plant the cold-stored half shortly. It will be very interesting to see which treatment gives a better germination rate for teas.
Reply #18 of 30 posted 15 APR 19 by Kim Rupert
I stopped cold storing seeds some years ago, Hubert. I don't breed with "Arctic hardy" types which may require cold stratification, and I figured it shouldn't be necessary. I haven't suffered any reduction in germination.
Reply #19 of 30 posted 15 APR 19 by HubertG
Thank you Kim, it's always good to learn from others with direct experience. Because of the region from which tea roses originate, I wouldn't have thought they really needed a period of cold to germinate well, but it seems to be the standard practice.
Reply #20 of 30 posted 15 APR 19 by Kim Rupert
You're welcome, Hubert. It isn't just Teas but modern HTs, floribundas, shrubs of similar breeding and any miniatures. Add species such as Xanthina, Hugonis, Primula, Fedtschenkoana, Minutifolia, Stellata mirifia, Spithamea, Arkansana, Californica, even Banksiae lutescens. Mixtures of them all germinate just as freely in this climate as I experienced when I held seeds in cold storage between harvest and planting in my old Zone 10 home. I had to hold them until about Thanksgiving (late November) as that was when temps historically should fall into the seventies F and there should have been chances of rain. Prior to that date, temps were frequently in the nineties to triple digits and it was very difficult to keep planted seeds properly watered. Here, the temperatures are usually in the appropriate range and watering is much less of an issue, so I stopped the cold storage and just keep them dry in small plastic bags until I have enough to fill my seed tables.
Reply #21 of 30 posted 26 APR 19 by HubertG
Thanks Kim, it's great to learn something like this stemming from all your experience.

I noticed another seedling from this unstratified batch had popped up today. The first one is doing well and has put out its first true leaf.
Reply #22 of 30 posted 26 APR 19 by Kim Rupert
Reply #23 of 30 posted 26 JUL 19 by HubertG
To date I've had 12 seeds from this hip germinate. The first seedling damped off and died after about 10 days but the rest are doing well. Here is a photo taken today (26/7/19) of the first seedling to put out a bud. I'm rather excited.
Reply #24 of 30 posted 26 JUL 19 by Kim Rupert
Neat! Congratulations, again!
Reply #25 of 30 posted 26 JUL 19 by HubertG
Thanks. I'm afraid you will all have to put up with me posting photos of the flowers as they open lol.
They are though, in all probability, the first known seedlings from 'Maman Cochet' since Father Schoener's about 100 years ago, so I guess they are of some interest to others besides me.
Incidentally, more seeds from the unstratified batch germinated than the ones given cold treatment (only two) although of course the unstratified batch were planted earlier. My other hip on my 'Maman Cochet' which I pollinated with 'Comtesse de Labarthe' is ripening quickly and I'll have no hesitation in planting these seeds straight away rather than store them cold.
Reply #26 of 30 posted 26 JUL 19 by Kim Rupert
I don't blame you for working with the Cochets, Hubert. This past year, I used my Nessie [(Brunonii X Gigantea) X Mlle Cecile Brunner] X George Washington Richardson, a found rose from the California Gold Country, which has been determined to be the genuine Mlle de Sombreuil, Tom Thumb, Purezza and a Paul Barden rose, 42-03-02, a self of Ralph Moore's (Wichurana X Floradora) which he has found makes good polyanthas. I also used the 42-03-02 with another found rose, Florence Bowers Pink Tea and raised several smaller repeat-flowering floribunda to polyantha types from it.
Reply #27 of 30 posted 7 AUG 19 by HubertG
My seedling posted above has flowered now. The bud is long and initially quite pointed. It's a pale creamy flesh colour with a little bit of photochromic pink flushing, semi-double, nice form which I see coming from 'Maman Cochet', and little fragrance - a bit like 'Lorraine Lee' but much less with a hint of cloves.
Reply #28 of 30 posted 7 AUG 19 by Margaret Furness
Reply #29 of 30 posted 7 AUG 19 by Kim Rupert
That's a lovely color, Hubert. Congratulations!
Reply #30 of 30 posted 7 AUG 19 by HubertG
Thanks Margaret and Kim. I thought it would be of interest to post. I'm a little disappointed about the near lack of fragrance, but I hope some of the others when they flower might be more strongly scented.
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