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"Trinity", Tea, should be classified as Bermuda Mystery Rose, not a Bermuda Rose. It is what is called a Found Rose in the USA.
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I'm not sure I understand about this one, "Trinity (Tea, Bermuda Rose)" is already classified as a found rose on HMF - note both the found rose designation and the name is enclosed in double quotes. We do not have a class called Bermuda Mystery Rose, rather we use the combination Bermuda Rose and Found Rose to indicate such. Do you see this as a problem - we would be interested in your opinion.
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The O.P. (sadly now deceased) was Liesbeth Cooper, the rosarian from Bermuda who studied, preserved and helped establish this 'class' of roses. If she thought the class should be called Bermuda Mystery Roses instaed of simply Bermuda Roses, her opinion should have some weight.
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I believe the class of Bermuda Rose should be deleted altogether from the selection of Old Garden Roses. In this case to leave just the two classes of Found Rose, and Tea.
In Australia, the foundlings are not classed as Australian Rose; nor in England as English Rose, etc.
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I can't tell you how often I've searched for roses using that classification. And now I can't.
Having a "class" for found roses for a large country like Australia or the U.S. doesn't make sense, because there are so many different climates, and so many different foundlings of different types.
Bermuda, however, is a small island and if I want to search for a tough rose that is tolerant of heat and humidity, these roses are pretty much guaranteed to do well in my growing conditions.
I would really love to be able to search for found roses by country or climate.
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#5 of 13 posted
24 JUN by
 Lee H.
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I rather agree. Peter Beales dedicated a bit of space to them in Classic Roses, and they are detailed in that book as a class under Chinensis by the President of the Bermuda Rose Society, Lorna Mercer.
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There is no doubt in my mind that Bermuda Rose is not a Class of Old Garden Roses - despite being offered as a Class by HelpMeFind.
Old Garden Roses:
Agatha/Agathe
Alba
Ayrshire
Bermuda Rose
Bourbon
Bourbon, Cl.
Boursault
Centifolia
The Classes of roses grown in Bermuda are teas, chinas, hybrid perpetual, rambler, noisettes, etc. and found roses.
If a list of roses grown in that country is required, then I suggest adding synonyms of "Bermuda whatever" to the few that lack that prefaced name.
You can certainly search for found roses by country or climate:
Use Advanced Search, select Found Rose, and under Origin, select country.
Also using Advanced Search, under Growing, one can search using the hot climate Zones.
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You wrote: "If a list of roses grown in that country is required, then I suggest adding synonyms of "Bermuda whatever" to the few that lack that prefaced name."
Adding "Bermuda whatever" to the names of the roses that don't already have it is gonna be tricky unless we already know which roses need these synonyms. Before you deleted all the roses from this category, did you check to be sure they all had 'Bermuda' somewhere in the name?
Did you check with whoever added this category to HMF in the first place? Somebody went to some trouble to add the category to HMF, and then to add the relevant roses.
FYI, I just did a search for found roses with Bermuda as the country of origin, and the search returned five roses. When I searched for found roses in India, I got one hit.
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#8 of 13 posted
25 JUN by
jedmar
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I disagree with this one-sided deletion. "Bermuda Rose" might not be a class as defined by ARS, but it is a well-known term within the World Federation of Rose Societies since at least 1987, and supported by several publications and articles. From the Foreword of "Roses in Bermuda Revisited": ... our many "Mysteries", some of which have been accorded the ultimate accolade of simply being known as 'Bermuda' roses.
Bermuda's special climate has preserved many long-lost Teas and Chinas. It is of interest to researchers to have these specifically mentioned. The reference that there is no class of Australian or English found roses is not relevant, as those terms are already captured by Ausbred roses and English roses (by Austin).
Such a move should have been the result of a proper discussion, taking into account of the opinions of members from the Conservation & Heritage community, especially from Bermuda.
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This is one of those issues where further input from the HelpMeFind rose community is requested/welcomed.
On the surface, it centers around contrasting opinions of experts presenting very cogent arguments for their positions. Should the Bermuda rose class be included as an official designation for Old Garden Roses? From a purely technical standpoint, it may not be appropriate but it's use has been accepted by other noteworthy references for some time.
Strict factual vs historic/commonly accepted representation is not a new issue for HMF and as a mutable resource we are able to best address this type of controversy. Often the solution is as easy as tracking down the source of misinformation and making the appropriate correction on HMF. Those are by far the most satisfying but sometimes it's not possible to readily ascertain which conflicting resources/opinions are "correct". In these cases, the best we can do is document the differing opinions.
In this instance, it may be best resolved with some sort of compromise. Maybe we need an official "Bermuda" class designation along with a new "Bermuda (historical)" class or possibly a thorough explanation of our use of the Bermuda class designation.
We invite comments from the community.
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#10 of 13 posted
27 JUN by
HubertG
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My two cents for what it's worth ...
They aren't strictly a class of rose in the sense that (as Patricia rightly points out) they incorporate other classes of roses like Teas, Chinas, Hybrid Teas etc, etc.; they are more like a category or subset of various classes.
However I think it's useful knowing where these found roses originated and so having the prefix "Bermuda" attached to those roses which don't already have that makes the best sense to me. Just like all the roses found at Bishops Lodge at Hay, New South Wales have the prefix "Bishops Lodge" attached to them to designate their special origin.
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Very helpful, thank you.
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#12 of 13 posted
1 JUL by
jedmar
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Marijke Peters, President of the Bermuda Rose Society writes on June 28, 2024:
"The problem is that Bermuda roses are not classified except as Bermuda roses. If someone wants to compete there has to be a class for it. Please keep it as it was."
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I find it a useful category, and I don't see how anyone is harmed by keeping things as they were.
For the BRS, it is a class for rose shows, and I wouldn't be astonished to hear that some rose societies in Florida or the Caribbean use it as a class in their shows. Some American nurseries use it as a category also.
HMF has an explanation of the Bermuda Mystery Roses already—it's in the glossary.
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In the opinion of the Bermuda Rose Society "Smith's Parish" and "Red Smith's Parish" (sport of the former) should not be synonymous with 'Fortune's Five-Coloured Rose'. According to The Graham Stuart Thomas ROSE BOOK, page 131 : 'Five-coloured China Rose' .This is a remarkable plant discovered by Robert Fortune during his journeys in China for the then Horticultural Society of London, recorded in his book 'Three Years' Wanderings in the Northern Provinces of China', of 1847. It has been treasured for many years in Bermuda, whence came my plants. In China it is known as 'Wu Se' Quaing Wei'...... It was definitely NOT bred in England by Fortune!
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