HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 8 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 8 days ago by odinthor
Introduction date is 1895: "Our superb new Pedigree Rose, introduced in 1895" (Dingee & Conard wholesale catalog, 1895, p. 18; but also in their 1895 retail catalog).
most recent 8 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 10 days ago by odinthor
There is an apparently hidden synonym here of 'Florida Rose'; but a rose known as the 'Florida Cottager' was a different rose: Gainesville Nurseries catalog of 1906, p. 6, lists 'Florida Cottager' ("Well known and common throughout the South; a constant bloomer; color bright red") separately from 'Louis Philippe' ("A strong grower and another favorite; the color is a dark, rich velvet, with lighter shadings to center").
Reply #1 of 5 posted 10 days ago by scvirginia
Is this perhaps a situation akin to the Florida cracker roses where people in different regions of Florida gave various China Roses that performed well in their areas the same nickname?
Reply #2 of 5 posted 10 days ago by odinthor
It's looking like that's the case!
Reply #3 of 5 posted 9 days ago by scvirginia
If you didn't notice my comment about 'Jenny Lind', I wonder if you have an opinion about her originator?
Reply #4 of 5 posted 9 days ago by odinthor
I haven't run across any further information at present, unfortunately.
Reply #5 of 5 posted 8 days ago by scvirginia
most recent 9 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 10 days ago by odinthor
Apparently Mr. Jones was responsible for breeding all of the roses mentioned in the following (with Dingee & Conard as their introducer):

“Long ago it was known that different varieties would hybridize or mix with each other, that is that the pollen would mix producing seed, that might under some circumstances produce varieties in which some qualities of both the parents, so to speak, might be blended or represented together in the new variety, and knowing this it occurred to a skillful hybridizer in this country, one who had made it almost a life business, that if he could combine the best qualities of the choicest varieties now in existence, he might secure something far better and more valuable, than any of the parents, and this is just what he has tried to do. He selected some of the best types of Roses for parents, and after years of patient study succeeded in hybridizing them under conditions that precluded the possibility of other mixture, and from this seed these new varieties have been produced. It is an exceedingly interesting illustration of what skillful hybridization can do, and no doubt the Roses will be watched with much interest. The names of these Pedigree Roses are, ‘Henry M. Stanley’, ‘Pearl Rivers’, ‘Mrs. Jesse Fremont’, ‘Maud Little’, and ‘Golden Gate’. The Stanley was named in honor of the great African explorer, and was raised from ‘Madame Lambert’ and ‘Comtesse Riza du Parc’; it is clear pink in color, and very beautiful. The ‘Pearl Rivers’ is raised from those two noble Roses, ‘Devoniensis’ and ‘Madame de Watteville’, color ivory white. ‘Mrs. Jesse Fremont’ is a seedling from ‘Duchess de Brabant’. ’Maud Little' is raised from ‘Pierre St. Cyr’ and ‘Duchess de Brabant’, and has a particularly lustrous bloom. ‘Golden Gate’ comes from ‘Safrano’ and ‘Cornelia Cook’, and is one of the most distinct and unique Roses recently introduced; altogether they are a charming addition to our list of New Roses, and will no doubt be largely sought after. It is certainly time that more attention was given in this country to the production of new and valuable varieties of Roses and other flowers and fruits, and though it is a matter requiring careful study and patient industry, it is believed that it will pay well if followed up with good judgment and skill, in fact a good many people are now doing quite a handsome business in introducing new varieties of various kinds, and there is undoubtedly room for a great many more.” [Success with Flowers, vol. 1, 1890, pp. 6–7]

The New Orleans connection is supported by the names 'Pearl Rivers', journalist of the New Orleans Picayune, and poet, and 'Maud Little', probably the daughter or wife of New Orleans florist R.N. Little (himself responsible for 'Winnie Davis'). Meantime, the magazine Success with Flowers was from Dingee & Conard, so they certainly speak authoritatively in the above comments.
Reply #1 of 4 posted 10 days ago by jedmar
References to the parentages addded. Regarding the breeder, the text only speaks of "He". We have Jones as a breeder of 'Golden Gate' based on a single reference from 1906.
The wikipedia entry on Star Roses and Plants / Conard Pyle mentions:
1867: Dingee & Conard began propagating roses under a new system introduced by Antoine Wintzer, the head nurseryman, and a world-class hybridiser. Conard conceived the idea of disposing of their rose stock through the mail. Their first catalog offered bedding plants, shrubbery, bulbs, seeds, and roses.
1888: Howard Preston sold his farm (a dairy farm and regional creamery) to S. Morris Jones, who continued to operate the creamery.
1892: Conard separated from Dingee and along with Antoine Wintzer joined with S. Morris Jones. The new company continued with the growing and distribution of roses and flowering plants. Much of the farmland acquired by Jones became part of Conard-Pyle, the house was eventually provided to the head nurseryman, Antoine Wintzer, as his residence.
1895: Antoine Wintzer worked on the improvement of the canna.
1897: The company's name became Conard & Jones Co.

No further information on S. Morris Jones. Wouldn't the breeder of Dinge & Conard be Antoine Wintzer = He?
Reply #2 of 4 posted 10 days ago by odinthor
S. Morris Jones was certainly a rose lover (see his presentation to the Pennsylvania State Horticultural Association published in "A List of Apples, Pears"; [etc.], 1889, p. 71); but I see no hint that he had rose-breeding aspirations. He was 'a business man of West Grove knowing Mr. Wintzer's great ability as a propagator, [who therefore] furnished him capital to organize the Conard & Jones Company" (from periodical Gardening, vol. 15, 1907, p. 137), of which he was Secretary and Treasurer.

As to Wintzer, though he was in charge of the nursery and rose-growing for Dingee & Conard, he seems to have restricted his own hybridization efforts to the Canna; I'd be interested in seeing anything about him rose-breeding.

Surely Dingee & Conard would have taken pride in referring to the "he" in their article (quoted above) as OUR hybridizer had such been the case; as it is, it appears to concern someone with whom they have commercial relations--that is, a breeder from whom they brought proprietary rights to his varieties which seemed to show promise--not an "in-house" worker. Why the Jones of 'Golden Gate' evidently did not want to publicize his name we cannot know; but if we accept Jones--whom I do not take to be businessman S. Morris Jones--as the breeder of 'Golden Gate', we also need to accept him as the breeder of the other roses mentioned in the article.

I should add that the reference to Jones, 'Golden Gate', and New Orleans comes from that most reliable source the Journal of the Royal Horticultural Society (vol. 27, 1903, p. 478).
Reply #3 of 4 posted 9 days ago by jedmar
Added Anne Dorrance, the author of the article in the Journal of the Royal Horticultural Society. Definitely a bona fide source. Her father Benjamin F. Dorrance was a vice-president of the ARS in 1895-99.
Still, who was Jones from New Orleans?
Reply #4 of 4 posted 9 days ago by odinthor
There's a chance that close examination of the pages of the New Orleans Picayune could yield some stray information; but alas their archives are only available to subscribers of
most recent 9 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 12 days ago by odinthor
I find zero references to 'Niles Cochet' before its offering by the California Nursery Company of Niles, California, in 1911. References to 'Niles Cochet' as if dating back to 1906 appear to result from confusion with 'Helen Gould', which was referred to for a time as the 'Red Cochet' or 'Red Maman Cochet'. For instance, a ‘Red Maman Cochet’ is listed in a 1906 advertisement—with ‘Pink Maman Cochet’, ‘Yellow Maman Cochet’, and ‘White Maman Cochet’ and many other roses—as a premium available to subscribers to The Epitomist, with the roses all supplied by Good & Reese; but at that time it was a synonym for ‘Helen Gould’, as specifically stated in the Good & Reese catalog for 1906 (p. 20). Good and Reese indeed seem to acknowledge this when, more than two decades later, they call 'Niles Cochet' "the TRUE Red Cochet" (my emphasis) in their 1929 catalog.
Reply #1 of 4 posted 11 days ago by HubertG
It seems that 1911 was the year that the California Nursery Co. changed this rose's name to 'Niles Cochet' for it appears in their 1910 catalogue, and prior to that, as 'Red Maman Cochet'. It's also clear that it wasn't 'Balduin'/'Helen Gould' as this rose is also listed in the HT section. They record the introduction date of 'Niles Cochet' as 1906 in their 1915 catalogue, as well as confirming it "was sold for a few seasons under name of Red Maman Cochet, but was thought deserving of a more distinctive title, as it is not, strictly speaking, a red rose".
Reply #2 of 4 posted 11 days ago by Margaret Furness
From the references to Auguste Comte, from the HRIA Journal of 2021,43.4, p. 33, in an article by Lynne Chapman and Billy West:
"Many of you use the resources of the HelpMeFind website and here we encountered this rose as a foundling in Sardinia and also, to our surprise, discovered that it could be purchased under four different names in Europe: in Italy as Mme Scipion Cochet, and as Castello della Scala (a reintroduced rose); as Maman Cochet in the UK, and in France under the name Auguste Comte. It is also in the USA as we have seen it as one of the roses under the name Niles Cochet."
Reply #3 of 4 posted 10 days ago by odinthor
Reply #4 of 4 posted 9 days ago by HubertG
Margaret, very interesting about the rose sold in Italy as 'Mme. Scipion Cochet' matching 'Niles Cochet' in the US, as I just came across an American catalogue reference from 1925 which seems to erroneously synonymise these two roses.

From the Elmer Bros. (San José, California) "Rose Souvenir Catalog" (page unnumbered):

"Madam S'Cipo Cochet; Niles Cochet or Red Maman Cochet (California Nursery Co., 1906) (T.) Cherry red on outer petals, lighter within. A sport from the popular Maman Cochet and a far better rose. The flowers are just a trifle smaller, stems are better, carrying flowers fairly well. It is a remarkably free bloomer, particularly in the Fall, at the very time when its color is at its best. Succeeds splendidly as a “standard” as well as in bush form; a strong grower."

Clearly "S'Cipo" is some sort of misreading of Scipion. However if 'Niles Cochet' had been imported to Italy from this grower in the 1920s (and it is an American rose after all) it gives weight to the argument that the 'Mme. Scipion Cochet' found in Italy is really 'Niles Cochet'.

It's the only reference I've seen so far for 'Niles Cochet' also being called 'Mme Scipion Cochet' - maybe it was a frequent error, but I don't know yet.
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