HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
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most recent 9 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 10 days ago by odinthor
Actually, now I find 'Red Maman Cochet'--the later 'Niles Cochet'--listed by the California Nursery Company in their 1905 catalog (p. 78); they themselves are thus a year off when they state in 1915 that its introduction was in 1906. Their 1904 catalog does not list it.
Reply #1 of 3 posted 10 days ago by scvirginia
Presumably, the folks at CA Nursery Co. watched their sport for at least a year or two to see if it was stable. The 1905 listing probably was the earliest listing of the sport, and they were wrong to say it was introduced in 1906.

If the 1905 offering was the rose later renamed 'Niles Cochet', perhaps it was a 'soft launch' of sorts...the nursery only had a limited quantity of plants, but didn't anticipate huge demand. To 21st century catalog readers, the 1905 listing looks like the 1906 listing, but was there some sort of hoop-de-doo that went on at the nursery proper in 1906 that they thought of as the actual introduction?

I also wonder if people ordering 'Red Maman Cochet' before the name change thought they were ordering 'Balduin' AKA 'Helen Gould', and if the confusion is what finally prompted the name change?
Reply #2 of 3 posted 9 days ago by HubertG
To be fair to the California Nursery Co. their "1905" catalogue is technically their "1905-1906" catalogue and the preface remarks in it are dated 1st November 1905, so perhaps 'Red Maman Cochet' wasn't sent out before 1906.

It's interesting to note that (presumably the same) 'Red Maman Cochet' also appeared in the 'Portland Seed Co's 1905-1906 Catalogue of Shade and Ornamental Trees, Shrubs, Roses, Vines, etc.' on page 21 under "New Roses - Roses of Special Merit" as follows:

This is a sport from the Pink Maman Cochet, propagated by one of our rose growers. It is like the grand and popular White and Pink Cochets in everything except the color, which is an intensely bright cerise, or rose. Stock limited. Price, 75c each."

They make it clear that it was a sport of 'Maman Cochet' and that stock was limited. Perhaps the two nurseries were affiliated?
Reply #3 of 3 posted 9 days ago by scvirginia
It looks as if their limited stock was not refreshed..within a few years, they no longer listed it. Because Maman Cochet did/does sport more than many roses, and because the description didn't follow that of CA Nursery Company, I'm inclined to think it was a different rose

They may have dropped it because it wasn't stable, or because it was inferior to another, similar sport, or they may not have dropped it, but realized a better name was needed.

most recent 14 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 14 days ago by odinthor
"Not yet disseminated” in 1901 (American Florist, vol. 16, 1901, p. 1276); being catalogued and distributed by John N. May in 1902. The 1898 attached to this variety appears to signify when the sport originally occurred for Montgomery. It was registered with the Society of American Florists by Robert Montgomery on December 4, 1899.
most recent 10 JUL HIDE POSTS
Initial post 9 JUL by odinthor
This rose originated with H. Miles of New Jersey, May being the introducer: "Mr. John N. May, whose fame as a rosarian is well known, is to be credited with having introduced ‘Mrs. Pierpont Morgan’ to the notice of the public, he having secured the novelty by purchase from H. Miles of New Jersey, in whose place the sport appeared, on a plant of ‘Madame Cusin’," from American Agriculturist, vol. 57, 1896, p. 109.
Reply #1 of 3 posted 9 JUL by Nastarana
Contrary to the information on the description page, I doubt this rose is commercially available.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 10 JUL by jedmar
Corrected. The historic archives listed on the Buy From page initiate an automatic "commercially available"
Reply #2 of 3 posted 10 JUL by jedmar
Discoverer and reference added, thank you!
most recent 9 JUL HIDE POSTS
Initial post 9 JUL by odinthor
Introducer May, in his 1895 ad in The American Florist (p. 859), its introductory year, gives the name of this rose as 'Mrs. J. Pierpont Morgan'.
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