HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Don H
most recent 12 OCT SHOW ALL
Initial post 23 OCT 08 by Don H
The parentage of Antoine Ducher (the rose) is a bit ambiguous. The reference cited from the Old Rose Advisor says it is a "seedling of Madame Domage" but the lineage chart shows a seedling of Madame Domage as its parent. Is it known which is correct?
Reply #1 of 1 posted 12 OCT by odinthor
All original sources from around the time of introduction state that it is a seedling of 'Mme. Domage'.
most recent 20 APR 20 SHOW ALL
Initial post 15 MAR 10 by Don H
The July 8, 1956 edition of The Saint Petersburg Times reported that the parentage of Sterling Silver was "a cross between the well known hybrid tea rose, Peace, and a grey blue-lavender rose called Morning Mist".,3780064
Reply #1 of 7 posted 15 MAR 10 by jedmar
Great reference!
Reply #2 of 7 posted 15 MAR 10 by Don H
Thanks. Maybe you could add it to the lineage for Sterling Silver?
Reply #3 of 7 posted 16 MAR 10 by jedmar
Reply #4 of 7 posted 17 JAN 12 by Kim Rupert
The patent for Sterling Silver states ""The male parent was the variety Peace and an unnamed seedling as the female parent - the latter coming from a strain similar to Morning Mist." Therefore, the seed parent is NOT Morning Mist, but a related seedling." So, while Peace was involved, the other parent was, per the breeder's official claim, a possibly related seedling to Morning Mist, instead of Morning Mist itself.
Reply #6 of 7 posted 17 JAN 12 by Don H
Gladys FIsher's patent for Morning Mist says it was "a self pollinated seedling from one of my own unnamed seedlings" adding to murkiness.

Others have expressed doubts about the male parentage of Sterling Silver as well, pointing out to Peace as being a convenient sire for marketing purposes.

Perhaps the answers lay in the Conard Pyle archives at the University of Delaware. Those were the days of paper correspondence so there is a good chance of finding letters from Gladys.
Reply #7 of 7 posted 20 APR 20 by Michael Garhart
My personal opinion is that it is a seedling of Peace.

You can see Peace-like new growth in that photo, but also S.Silver has broader petals and decent form, which was rather difficult to get from most lineages at that time without using Peace. Also, Peace provides color disambiguation that silvery mauve often requires to be present.

The other half is obviously the mystery meat. I think its from an early pelargonidin types for several reasons. First, its a shorter rose than most HT. This happened in many early HT (Ophelia types, for example), but not as commonly during the 50s. Although this can be partially blamed on weak vigor due to selection bias of a rare color, it seems unlikely in this case, because the internode relativity seems to contradict such an idea. So it was probably both short and weak, rather than simply weak. I believed a dwarf variety is the culprit, such as those found in many early floribundas carrying pelargonidin. Second, the timing is perfect for the when such unusual silvery mauve colors were truly possible from these early pelargonidin types. Orangeade, as an example, has an extensive history with silvery mauves. 'Lavender Delight' is a prime example. Orange Sweetheart, for example, was introduced during the timeline when Morning Mist (a possible relation or sister) was being conceived. Last, to me it looks like the parentage of Morning Mist was deliberately concealed to hide the rose responsible for the color shift, only offering the idea that it was bred from roses that could typically make a florist rose at the time. Yet, the petal count and flower size is more like that of an early flori or flori hybrid.

If I had to guess, I would guess 'Fashion' was involved. I would guess a red florist rose derived from the roses she had listed and Fashion, and that the result was an odd-toned darker mauve.

I would also hazard a guess that 'Morning Mist' is a self of this unknown seedling, and that when she realized the outdoor vigor was even worse than the florist rose it was bred from, she crossed it with 'Peace' and got a silvery, better formed rendition.

Well, anyway, thats my best guess with how much little information is available.
Reply #8 of 7 posted 20 APR 20 by Kim Rupert
Thanks, Michael. That is a very interesting and plausible supposition.
most recent 4 OCT 19 SHOW ALL
Initial post 16 APR 09 by maele
Love, love, love it! So far it's doing well in it's first southern california spring that's been a little colder than usual. Still waiting to see what it does in the HOT summer ahead, but will post an update. Blooms like crazy, and no blooms fell off in yesterday's high winds. Beautiful ruffled edges, worth it for that feature alone. Also, no signs of disease. Colors are muted but pretty, open up russettish, fade to salmon pinkish/lavender when spent.
Reply #1 of 21 posted 10 MAY 09 by Jeff Britt
This is a nice, healthy rose that blooms freely and well. I just can't stand the color. It must be a personal quirk, but the color is very unsettled, harsh and doesn't combine well with other colors in the garden.
Reply #2 of 21 posted 10 MAY 09 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Jeff, you got further than I did. I couldn't bring myself to purchase CdM.
Reply #3 of 21 posted 11 MAY 09 by Don H
There is a bed of Cinco de Mayo at Elizabeth Park in Hartford. I have to say that the photos at HMF don't really capture its appearance in a bed, or even the flowers - the blooms have much more yellow in them here. It's a hugely floriferous plant, as well.

That said, the foliage and especially the canes detract from it, being very rustic looking and quite prickly. It is not high on my list as a breeder but I do think it would be worth exploring and may give it some attention this year as a pollen parent. I have a couple of OP seedlings going of it as well.
Reply #4 of 21 posted 12 MAY 09 by Jeff Britt
I didn't buy CDM to put in my garden. NO way would the color work anywhere. I bought three plants for a neighbor and she's thrilled with them. She likes anything bright and gaudy, and in her garden it seems to look O.K. CDM does flower like a trooper, though the growth is a bit uneven -- some short and some tall canes, so you don't get a very rounded bush without some heavy-handed pruning.
Reply #6 of 21 posted 26 MAY 09 by Jeff Britt
You know, I knew that the color of CDM reminded me of something, and yesterday the penny dropped. The color reminds me of when someone's mother used to mix grape Kool-Aid with Hawaiian Punch and serve it at a kids party. It tasted strange, too!
Reply #7 of 21 posted 28 MAY 09 by HMF Admin
lol !
Reply #5 of 21 posted 15 MAY 09 by Linette
We purchased the Cinco de Mayo and what a disappointment. It's a healthy plant and blooms frequently, however the color is awful and not as pictured at all. I thought the more it bloomed and became established, that the color would be truer to the picture but I think it has settled on a Coral with some blooms containing yellow streaks. I purchased this rose specifically for a corner that had been without for years (waiting on the right one) and I thought I had found the one with Cinco de Mayo. The blooms do not last long and the only positive I can find is the foliage color. This is one rose that I will be removing once I find a better one to add. I have never felt this way about a plant and much more a rose. I learn to live with the sometimes "not as pictured" roses but this rose is so different in color, it would almost be easier to believe they packaged the wrong plant in error. I only see the purple hues when the flower has died (so dead the petals are dry).
Reply #21 of 21 posted 4 OCT 19 by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Thank you for the info. that blooms don't last long.
Reply #8 of 21 posted 2 JUN 09 by DonaldQuRoses
Wow I'm shocked with everyone disliking the color. I find it to be too beautiful for words! There is no way to photograph it and capture its nuances and color variations. I guess to each his own. I do wonder though if location makes a difference. Some roses look like completely different roses if viewed across the states and globe. I've mixed mine with a lavender pink rose and two very deep red roses. The combo is divine!
Reply #9 of 21 posted 4 JUN 09 by maele
The color does change a LOT, but I find the foliage really pretty. Even though it does match absolutely nothing, I am planning to put it with lavender perennials, a red japanese maple that is a dark maroon, and maybe small red roses. For me the second bloom cycle had a few dark orange flowers, but my friend's plant did turn very gaudy as some of you mentioned. Hers is from Star and mine is from Weeks, but I don't know if it makes a difference.
Now mine seems to have settled into a beautiful muted russet color, and it blooms all the time. I agree with everyone that this is a strange looking plant, but I still like it. One cool thing is that the color can pull together other random colors in a vase of cut roses, since it has a little bit of everything.
Reply #10 of 21 posted 5 JUN 09 by DonaldQuRoses
I can see 'Distant Drums' as a good companion rose! Just thought of this combo!
Reply #11 of 21 posted 5 JUN 09 by Jeff Britt
Reply #12 of 21 posted 5 JUN 09 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
"Yikes", lol, I had the same reaction!
Reply #18 of 21 posted 25 NOV 09 by Michael Garhart
Robert, you have no taste :P

I actually like this rose. It has a nice bushy habit. The color is very Fall-like here in Oregon. It is very rustic. It actually has a strong Pacific NW feel to it. My main complaint of it is that I feel it should be stronger smelling for what it is. I wish Distant Drums had a more natural bush like CdM does, and I wish CdM had a more memorable scent like DD does, lol.

At any rate, I would recommend this rose for rounding out any angular corners in the garden --especially those corners that need a smooth, dark touch to it -- not something punctual or attention seeking.
Reply #19 of 21 posted 25 NOV 09 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Vive la difference! ;-)
Reply #20 of 21 posted 25 NOV 09 by Michael Garhart
Pffft :P
Reply #13 of 21 posted 5 JUN 09 by DonaldQuRoses
C'mon guys! Are ya color blind? ;) I just thought with Distant Drums being peach pink and purple it would echo a paler version of Cinco de Mayo. Now stop making fun of my color sense - I do have a Master of Fine Arts in Painting after all - whadyo got? ;)
Reply #14 of 21 posted 5 JUN 09 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Degrees in horticulture. ;-)
Reply #15 of 21 posted 5 JUN 09 by DonaldQuRoses
No wonder!!! ;()
Reply #16 of 21 posted 6 JUN 09 by Margaret Furness
Now add Victoriana, and you'll have the full catastrophe.
(My degree is in radiology - black & white stuff.)
Reply #17 of 21 posted 7 JUN 09 by Jeff Britt
Degree in horticulture and strong opinions. That's all. And in NO way do I mean to demean anyone's color sense. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I believe that completely. CDM has merits that I cannot appreciate, but you do. Thank God we're not all alike!
most recent 13 FEB 19 SHOW ALL
Initial post 23 JUN 08 by Don H
According to the Thomas Jefferson Foundation it was William Prince and his son William Rogers Prince of Flushing, New York who hybridized Baltimore Belle. See
Reply #1 of 2 posted 13 FEB 19 by StefanDC
The link included in the original post seems to be broken now, but anyone interested can currently still find the document here:

However, it does not suggest that 'Baltimore Belle' was hybridized by Prince, which would be entirely at odds with the long written history that firmly credits Samuel Feast as its originator. The only mention of this cultivar in the article states, "He [Prince] paid special attention to hybrids of the prairie rose, Rosa setigera, the most celebrated being the magnificent 'Baltimore Belle'."
Reply #2 of 2 posted 13 FEB 19 by Don H
Good catch, Stefan, thanks.
© 2024