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I'm not sure that 'Souv. de Alupka' is the same rose.
Michurin mentioned it in his observations from the summer of 1896:
"Tough. Major. Semi-double. Dark yellow."
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CybeRose,
Your views alway command respect. I wonder what your reasoning is on this point. The photo I posted of 'Aloupka' at the Vorontsovs' palace seems roughly to fit Michurin's description, allowing for the pallor of yellow roses before the intrusion of Rosa foetida. The other photo posted, taken by Etienne Bouret at l'Hay les Roses, seems obviously a different rose, neither semi-double nor yellow of any sort.
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#2 of 10 posted
31 AUG 13 by
 jedmar
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I have added rough translations of references to 'Alupka' from two articles by Ms. Arbatskaja. It seems that the identity of this rose is still questionable.
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I see: Mignonette d'Aloupka, Favorite d'Aloupka, Souvenir d'Aloupka, since von Hartwiss gave his roses names in French. Some would have been produced after 1834 and so do not appear in his handwritten catalogue. Any of them might have had their names shortened to Aloupka. Or perhaps there was a separate variety called simply Aloupka.
Is there any evidence that the yellow rose at the Vorontsovs' palace is identical to Maréchal Neil or not? You would think it was in principle an easy call to make. If it is NOT the same, which of the Aloupkas is it likely to be? Not such an easy call, I realize.
Below is a photo from Arbatskaya, "Old Roses on the South Coast of Crimea" of an Aloupka at Sangerhausen which is evidently neither of the roses whose photos are currently attached to the HMF entry. Its buds at least are red.
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#4 of 10 posted
4 SEP 13 by
CybeRose
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Eric,
I wasn't "reasoning" on this. I found the reference and wanted to put it somewhere. I should copy more of Michurin's descriptions for comparison. E.g.,
Safrano: Hardy. Semi-double. Fragrant. Blooms profusely. Copper-yellow.
Karl
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Yes, it's very helpful.
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#6 of 10 posted
2 SEP 14 by
Krimrose
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von Hartvis hat keine Züchtung, die einfach Alupka hieß. Die einfach "Alupka" taucht als eine Fundrose in Deutschland auf, um Jahrhundertwende. Ein reisender Deutscher hat sie von der Krim gebracht, dabei ist es nicht klar, ob der Fundort den Namen gegeben hat, oder ist es tatsächlich ein Teil des ursprünglichen Namens. Die Rose wird bei Jäger als "weiße Niel" beschrieben. In den russischen Katalogen von der Krim und aus Odessa aus der Zeit vor 1917 wird sie mal weiß, mal Kanariengelb beschrieben. Die Pflanze in SGH entspricht keiner der Beschreibungen. Die Pflanze in Alupka ist NICHT IDENTIFIZIERT. Es wäre zu voreilig sie als Alupka zu präsentieren. Die Variante aus SGH ist in der Vermehrung und wird demnächst von Frau Prof. Dr. Klimenko untersucht.
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Thank you, Krimrose. It will be very interesting to hear what Professor Klimenko finds.
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#8 of 10 posted
3 SEP 14 by
Krimrose
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Dauert noch. Sie bekommt die Pflanze aus SGH jetzt im Herbst, vor dem nächsten Sommer ist nichts zu erwarten.
LG Victoria
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#9 of 10 posted
13 OCT 22 by
jedmar
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Hat sich in dieser Sache etwas ergeben?
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I have heard or read nothing. One hopes feebly that the work of Prof Klimenko and others continues under the Russian takeover of Crimea.
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This just doesn't seem right; wrong colour, too small at only 3 inches across, filaments aren't pinky-red.
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Dear HubertG,
Perhaps I photographed the wrong plant. I'll cross check with the director of the Bulla garden to see what she thinks. Of course it is possible that the garden itself has made a wrong identification.
Eric
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#2 of 5 posted
17 MAY 20 by
HubertG
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Thanks for doing that, Eric. I thought it might just be a photo mix-up, but it would be awful if the Alister Clark garden had the wrong 'Amy Johnson'.
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My hunch is that I took the photo because the colour of the just opened bud is different than when the bloom is fully open. But hunches left over from 2013 need to be checked.
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Dear HubertG, I'm sorry it has taken me so many (covid) months to respond to your comments. I think this photo is correct for Amy Johnson as it first comes into bloom, both stamens and petal colour. But of course the stamens change quickly and the petals are more commonly a much less orange shade of pink. One reason I am confident of this is that I took a photo of the same rose the following year and produces a much more conventional image. I'm going to post the latter image today as a kind of wobbly bona fide.
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#5 of 5 posted
6 APR 21 by
HubertG
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Eric, the photo you just posted (Photo Id:361813) definitely looks like 'Amy Johnson' to me. I will admit it is a rose that changes colour rather quickly from the opening bud to the open flower. Thanks for following this up and posting.
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I pressed the wrong button and inadvertently deleted these two comments. For the record, here they are again.
2008. Patricia Routley to Helpmefind August 26,
I don't have Alister Clark's 1929 'Busybody'. Does any one else? There is mention in the references that R. gigantea may have been involved in the parentage. And it is of interest that it is not available in the Australian nurseries, and yet Ruston Roses is carrying this rose. Does any one know the provenance of the Ruston Roses plant?
2008. Margaret Furness to Helpmefind. Sep 25
David says that the rose sent to Ruston's some years ago as Busybody turned out to be Sunlit mislabelled. I didn't ask where it had come from. There isn't a true plant of Busybody at Ruston's. We stated in the most recent HRiAI journal that we were looking for a source of Busybody for the Tea Collection, but have had no response.
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Patricia, I've posted two photos of the Nieuwesteeg 'Busybody' now in the garden at Bulla. It's quite close to Sunlit and doesn't look the same. Sunlit is bigger, taller and far more yellow. Mid-February, Busybody is pale beige on the outer petals, apricot-beige at the centre. Little or no scent today.
Incidentally that colour you specify is not "chrome and yellow" but Chrome Yellow, the yellow made from chromium; it has a lot of brown in it.
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The one in the HRIAI Collection at Renmark, of which I've posted photos in the past, came from John Nieuwesteeg.
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Thanks, Margaret, for the clarification, which certainly explains why your photos and mine look the same. I think they are of Busybody and certainly not of Sunlit. Unless the Sunlit at Bulla and Werribee itself is bogus, which strains credulity to breaking point.
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Eric - I took the colours from the horse's mouth (see 1927 and 1930 refs). Alister also said the bud was dark Indian apricot so I've added that as well.
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Thank you, Patricia. As soon as I saw that rose I thought, "Dark Indian apricot," one of my favourite colours. W.G. Randall says "a rich orange-yellow toning much admired by ladies", for goodness sake.
The plants at Bulla are only a foot high. But perhaps that's because they are so young.
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Another quick thing to check is the presence or absence of prickles.
'Sunlit' is often prickle-less or almost and 'Busybody' we saw at Rustons had plenty of them.
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Thank you, Billy. I'll check it as soon as I can.
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Billy, at Bulla this morning, reading left to right:
Sunlit, completely thornless
Busybody, visibly what Patricia calls "chrome and yellow"
Busybody thorns
Busybody thorns.
Sunlit and Busybody are a metre apart, so the differences can't be attributed to different growing conditions.
Both were supplied by John Nieuwesteeg.
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Thanks very much Eric!
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#10 of 11 posted
31 MAY 19 by
HubertG
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From the photo here (photo Id: 312268, 17 Feb 2018) it seems that 'Busybody' readily sets hips, something which 'Sunlit' never did for me.
There's an interesting reference to a "seedling from Busybody" in 'The Age' newspaper of 10th April 1930, page 7, which describes some of Clark's new seedlings:
"NATIONAL ROSE SOCIETY. - AUTUMN SHOW.
Mr Alister Clark of "Glenara" Bulla, again staged no fewer than four tables of his decorative roses. While these included many well known varieties of other raisers, the majority were his own productions. [ ... ] No 3222 is a nice seedling from Busybody."
At least it confirms to us that 'Busybody' did set seed. 'Sunlit' is probably T x HT and most likely triploid.
Edit: I do wonder whether this seedling was in fact 'Lady Huntingfield' released seven years later, or maybe even 'Sunlit' itself since it seems to bear some similarities to 'Busybody'.
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The flowers on Busybody (potted) and Sunlit (in ground) are very similar at present (mid-late summer). Pink eyelashes and slightly darker petal reverses. But Busybody has prickles.
Leonie K says her Sunlit had prickles - I wonder if there was a nursery double mix-up since Sunlit was once sent to David as Busybody.
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Initial post
25 FEB 15
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* This post deleted by user *
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So it might appear as if the rose found by Val and Graeme Johnston (see 1990 and 2002 refs) at Rookwood some time before [?] 1983 (when Trevor Nottle’s book 'Growing Old Fashioned Roses' was published). The Johnston’s gave it to Roy Rumsey (1990 ref) and later when Roy was unimpressed with it (Heather Rumsey did not include ‘Lady Edgeworth David’ in her 1990 book ‘Old Fashioned Roses for Australian Gardens’), they gave it as well to Peter Cox who sold it from his Thirlmere nursery in the late 1980s.
Peter Cox (2006 ref) says “I have been told by my informant that there is another plant of the Lady in Victoria” and I think he may be referring to John Nieuwesteeg’s clone. John (2003 ref) said “...I believe I have ‘Lady Edgeworth David’....”.
So, there may be two roses: A singly-borne rose which the Johnston’s found at Rookwood, NSW; and the cluster-flowered rose from John Niewesteeg, Victoria. Does anybody know where John got his rose from? (My plant came from Victoria and seems to be the cluster-flowered version.)
If there are any internet searchers out there who can really delve into old newspapers, it would be good to get an early reference to single or cluster flowering for ‘Lady Edgeworth-David’.
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Yes, that's one possibility among several.
Another is that LED produces single flowers when struggling and (very widely spaced) clusters when flourishing. A related problem is that all the roses shown on HMF are growing in what's left of Mediterranean climate in southern Australia. The ones we hear about were grown in a China type climate, now becoming outright monsoonal.
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Help! HMF has deleted my initial post. Can that be reversed? It read:
Peter Cox (89 in four weeks' time) writes:
"One nursery at Dural grew 'Warrawee' which I found to be a popular rose; and Roy Rumsey did for a time grow 'Lady Edgeworth David' and 'Warrawee'. (We also grew 'Warrawee' on our nursery at Thirlmeer 1979–94.) I did however acquire a plant of 'Lady Edgeworth David' from an HRIA member living on the NSW Central Coast that was given to him by Roy Rumsey with the comment 'You can have this plant. It is not worth growing commercially.'
"There is a photo of this rose on page 26 of [my] "Australian Roses". Whereas the colours match [the photos on Help Me Find], the form of the flower differs. The flower [photographed for "Australian Roses"] opens flat, cupped much like 'Souvenir de la Malmaison' and singly: yours are in clusters and [mine] could never be called floriferous or a vigorous rose. I never propagated this rose as it had little vigour."
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Not as a rule. I might have pressed DELETE instead of REPLY but wasn't conscious of doing so. However I took a copy of it and put it in a word doc so that I could formulate some sort of reply to you. Here is your initial comment
2015. Feb 25. Eric Timewell comment on HMF
Peter Cox (89 in four weeks' time) writes:
"One nursery at Dural grew 'Warrawee' which I found to be a popular rose; and Roy Rumsey did for a time grow 'Lady Edgeworth David' and 'Warrawee'. (We also grew 'Warrawee' on our nursery at Thirlmeer 1979–94.) I did however acquire a plant of 'Lady Edgeworth David' from an HRIA member living on the NSW Central Coast that was given to him by Roy Rumsey with the comment 'You can have this plant. It is not worth growing commercially.'
"There is a photo of this rose on page 26 of [my] "Australian Roses". Whereas the colours match [the photos on Help Me Find], the form of the flower differs. The flower [photographed for "Australian Roses"] opens flat, cupped much like 'Souvenir de la Malmaison' and singly: yours are in clusters and [mine] could never be called floriferous or a vigorous rose. I never propagated this rose as it had little vigour."
................... Far out! Your comment has just appeared magically again.
I am going to give this up and go out and buy a pair of knitting needles! Can't (under)stand this technology.
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#6 of 12 posted
26 FEB 15 by
Jane Z
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unbelievably perhaps I can only find 1 reference to the rose in the mainstream media, from a national weekly womens magazine in 1942, (with 'malmaison' reference).
I did grow 2 plants, (miserable unhappy little specimens) of the JN LED & suspect they were the same as the Rookwood plant.
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Thanks Jane. Despite it not saying much, I've added that reference.
My plant is not all that happy either. But I have a perennial hope that maybe next year / season, I'll give them the right treatment and then all the roses will be wonderful.
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Dear friends, I know talk is cheap. But both Lubra and Lady Edgeworth David respond to drip watering in summer and heavy feeding in spring and autumn. They should be bushes five feet high with four-inch blooms at least. That Alister Clark thing about roses bred to survive in hot Australian summers is definitely not to the point. Of course buds will take a long time to form because there are so many petals.
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Difficult... Patricia's soil is rose-unfriendly, and we suspect the same applies to the bed at Renmark which houses the early Aus-breds - and is killing yet another plant of Midnight Sun. I hope there's one in Victoria.
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The Midnight Sun at Bacchus Marsh died of thirst a month ago. I pray that John Nieuwesteeg still has the original. I think it's a superb rose by any standard. I'd love to have an entrance hedge of it, if only I had the garden to go with it.
The Morwell soil is appalling. But since Lubra got regular watering and feeding there it's leapt to five feet.
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Today (29 March 2015) I saw 'Lady Edgeworth David' near Warragul (annual rainfall 40 inches) and again, roses from the same budwood at Bacchus Marsh (rainfall 20 inches). The Warragul rose is cupped and even, like the 2002 photo on the cover of the journal of Heritage Roses. The Bacchus Marsh plants are a wind- and sun-blasted mess. I think we are dealing with one rose responding to friendly versus hostile conditions, not two roses as it might have appeared.
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I think there were two roses initially. but Jane Zammit (Reply 6 of 9) grew them both and suspected they were the same.
No. 1.
I am reading old correspondence and have found a Aug 11, 2005 email from a friend as follows:
"Talked with Damien Nieuwesteeg today - he walked out to John a couple of times to check facts - seems that JN found his Lady Edgeworth David about 15-20 years [c1987?] ago at a neighbours property at Wandin and is 99% sure it is correct id.:"
No. 2.
Found at Rookwood c.1983 by Val and Graeme Johnston (possibly from the "Nellie Gain" grave. or the “Rosebud Maisie”/”Samuel Maisey” grave). Passed to Roy Rumsey and then to Peter Cox.
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Dear Patricia, just to be clear, both the roses I reported on came from John Nieuwesteeg.
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Thank you Eric. We love clarity.
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