HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Fred Boutin
most recent 25 JUN 21 SHOW ALL
Initial post 15 AUG 12 by Fred Boutin
Seems to be the hybrid Setigera 'Erinnerung an Brod'.
Reply #1 of 5 posted 15 AUG 12 by Jay-Jay
I have to disagree on that point of view; or all the photo's of Erinnerung an Brod are made of a wrong rose and the description doesn't match this rose... And Erinnerung an Brod is a once-bloomer!
Reply #2 of 5 posted 15 AUG 12 by Fred Boutin
I have grown and observed the "Tylor Carrl" rose for 30 years and have noticed all the variations and mixes in colors from light red to dark red to black with an array of bluish violets and purples, matching 'Erinnerung an Brod'.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 16 AUG 12 by Jay-Jay
Then please explain, why this rose is described as a hybrid perpetual?
As for the for the form: the only flower (on photo), that is posted on HMF, doesn't look like Erinnerung an Brod at all.
Other characteristics aren't posted as photo's. Did You photograph Your 30 year experience with this found rose? (maybe to share with the HMF community?)
Reply #4 of 5 posted 24 JUN 21 by jmile
It is not Erinnerung an Brod. I have it and it is completely different. Different form different color different habit.
Reply #5 of 5 posted 25 JUN 21 by jedmar
Agree, looks like a Bourbon.
most recent 24 JUN 16 SHOW ALL
Initial post 1 DEC 09 by Fred Boutin
Where have you found a reference that M. Pissard discovered this rose and sent cuttings to M. Godefroy? I have only found that M. Godefroy grew this rose from seed received from M. Pissard. If Godefroy grew it from seed then it cannot be the original garden rose discovered by Pissard. The name Nastarana or Pissardii belongs to another rose.
Reply #1 of 2 posted 2 DEC 09 by jedmar
This is based on Ivan Louette's research. You could consider that Pissard "discovered" the seed, which is the rose commercialized as 'Nastarana'. The seed parent of these seeds is unknown.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 24 JUN 16 by scvirginia
In the 1886 Revue horticole article, Carrière states plainly that Rosa Godefroyae is very different from R. Pissardi on multiple counts. This confuses the issue of when the actual species rose from Tehran really reached France (Europe?), since Godefroy-Lebeuf's seedling was apparently not R. Pissardi, though it was treated as if it were.

Another puzzle is how Godefroy-Lebeuf so readily managed to raise a seedling from a rose with seeds that were notoriously sterile (see the 1880 Revue horticole article by Carrière).

I notice that on the description page, Pissard is credited with the discovery of R. Pissardi; that is debatable since it had been an important (and imported) garden rose in Tehran long before Pissard discovered it, but it does seem wrong that the description page implies that the rose was discovered in France, 1879. Pissard certainly discovered the rose in Persia.

most recent 18 MAR 16 SHOW ALL
Initial post 29 JAN 10 by Fred Boutin
MRIV says of Silver Star. Shrub. (Undritz, 1919). Silver Moon X Marie Van Houtte. Semi-dbl, Fragrant, white tinged cream, golden yellow stamens. Vig. (4 ft. high; 4 ft across); recurrent bloom.

In the 1966 ARA, Silver Star was determined extinct.
Reply #1 of 5 posted 30 JAN 10 by jedmar
When the ARA "determines extinct", then one can be sure that one of the major nurseries was intending to issue a new rose with the same name. Indeed, in this case it was Kordes in 1966. Many of these "extinct" roses are well and alive in some garden.
Reply #2 of 5 posted 30 JAN 10 by Margaret Furness
Perhaps David Ruston's collection should be renamed Jurassic Park.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 31 JAN 10 by Patricia Routley
Margaret, David's 2003 catalogue, p26 lists the Kordes 1966 'Silver Star'.
He does not list the 1919 climber.
Reply #4 of 5 posted 31 JAN 10 by Margaret Furness
Pity, it looks like an imaginative crossing (but not a climber, if the 4' is correct).
Reply #5 of 5 posted 18 MAR 16 by Nastarana
An entry in the American Rose Annual, under the heading New Roses Registered in 1919, has " It is bushy in habit with a climbing tendency". I wonder if anyone ever thought to use it for breeding repeat blooming ramblers?
most recent 25 FEB 16 SHOW ALL
Initial post 2 OCT 11 by Patricia Routley
Has there been any consensus on whether "St. Leonard's Noisette" is 'Jeanne d'Arc'? The blooms looks similar.
Reply #1 of 3 posted 11 AUG 13 by Fred Boutin
"St. Leonards Noisette" is the same as what we are calling 'Jeanne d'Arc', but that identification has not been confirmed with an old illustration or detailed description. There should be an old description which mentions a Noisette or Ayrshire with fragrant prickly glands on flower stalks and some stems, and white flowers which age with bright pink centers.
Reply #2 of 3 posted 12 AUG 13 by Patricia Routley
Well, there should be..... but the old references to 'Jeanne d'Arc' are very few in my bookshelf and computer. I've added the 1893 and 1995 refs but they tell nothing really.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 25 FEB 16 by walrathem
This reply is three years after your comment but the question is still open so I figure it's okay to re-open the thread.

I got bored and went trawling on the internet for older references to Vibert's 1848 Noisette, Jeanne d'Arc. (and a couple others I thought sounded interesting). I don't think it actually gets us any farther in figuring out the St. Leonard's/Little Mary Tower/Pale Pink Noisette issue. Oh well! It was fun. Here's what I found!

The Rose Manual; containing accurate descriptions of all the finest varieties of roses, properly classes in their respective families, their character and mode of culture, with directions for their propagation, and the destruction of insects. By Buist, Robert, 1805-1880 pub 1851 pg 94
“Jeanne d’Arc, a strong grower, of a pure white color, very double, flowers rather small for the habit of the plant.” (In the chapter on Noisettes)

Culture Generale. Etablissement Horticole de Avoux et Crozy. By M. Avoux and M. Crozy (?) pg. 81 pub. 1847
“Jeanne d’Arc, moy. Tr. Mult. Ou pj. Blanc, centre legerement carne … 1F50c” (listed under “Rosiers Noisettes”)

The amateur’s guide and flower-garden directory: containing every requisite detail for the successful cultivation of the flower garden. Embracing the classification of the best varieties of roses, and all plants requisite for the garden with directions for propagation, and remedies for the destruction of insects. To which is added the Vegetable garden manual. By Clark, John T. C. pub 1856
“Jeannie d’Arc,……. Pure white,… Cupped and very double. Flowers rather small. A strong grower.” (listed under “Rosa Moschata”)

1861 descriptive catalogue of Southern and acclimated fruit trees, evergreens, roses, grape vines, rare trees, shrubs, &c., cultivated and for sale at Pomaria Nurseries. By Pomaria Nurseries, Summer, William, 1815-1878; Henry G. Gilbert Nursery and Seed Trade Catalog Collection
“Joan of Arc—Pure white, fine pillar rose; cupped” (listed under “Noisette Roses”)
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