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Re. Herbemont's Musk Cluster. From a contribution by and Amateur, Baltimore MD June 10, 1837 in the Magazine of Horticulture, Botany, and ... vol. 3, 1837, p 248. Raised by the late Mrs. Nicholas Herbemont of Columbia, SC. Flowers are double the size of the common white musk cluster, equally white, much more fragrant, and the plant is much more prolific and a perpetual bloomer.
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Thank you- I located and added both references.
Virginia
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Found years ago at a old garden on Baretta St. in Sonora, CA. Thought it was the Poly 'Eglantine', but seems to be the same as what is in the trade as 'Papa Hemeray'.
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Shall we reassign the name "Baretta Street Poly" to 'Papa Hemeray'? And do you know if Jean Marion's photo is "Baretta Street Poly" or 'Eglantine'?
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Hello Patricia, I am not clear on what is what in the mixture that is presented as Papa Hemeray in the HMF photos. There seems to be at least three different roses in these photos. These being 1 Christine McCleod's, 2 Anita Clevenger's from Rosa Gallica Roseaie,and then 3 the balance of the photos. I have not seen a confirming plate or photo or description that allows us to separate and name them with confidence. If Eglantine 1930 is among them I don't know.
I found this Poly on Baretta St. in Sonora about 1983 and distributed it as Baretta St. Poly. I believe Joyce Demits cataloged it under that name and also Beautiful Poly. As I tried to identify it I recognized that it was probably derived from some Crimson Rambler descendant. About the time I was zeroing in on Eglantine as a possibility I received reports that Baretta St. Poly matched what Vintage was offering as Papa Hemeray. So that may be an id but then again it seems far from clear. Fred
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Thanks Fred. I have some notes on file and it seems as though we should be looking closely at the pedicels on these single red polys. I will go to the books and add what refs I can find for 'Eglantine', 'Mme. Francisque Favre', 'Britannia' etc. (think I have done 'Papa Hemeray'). Might take some time as, after the worst bushfire in Western Australia's history last February, the bush is alive with orchids and today is my husband's 87 birthday - so we are a-orchiding today.
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It appears HelpMeFind has two files for the foundling, so I will move "Baretta Street Poly" out of 'Eglantine' and into to the file which contains "Beautiful Poly" and Baretta St. Single Poly. I will also send Jean Marion a private message to ask her what her photo was. (This points out the need for everyone to put the name of the rose on every photo.)
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Why Spray Cecile Brunner has been confused with Bloomfield Abundance. The only surviving photographs of the original Bloomfield Abundance do not reveal the size and scale of the shrub, flowers and inflorescences. It is easy to ignore the early description which said it was a Hybrid Tea in size. Another reason for the confusion is that both Bloomfield Abundance and Spray Cecile Brunner have similar growth habits and unusual brush or broom-like inflorescences which carry the buds and flowers distinctly way above the foliage. It was this latter characteristic which was so evident on the old specimen Judy Dean discovered in the California Mother Lode. The foundling looked like a giant version of Spray Cecile Brunner but with large hybrid tea like flowers on a large shrub.
A third reason for the confusion of Spray Cecile Brunner with Bloomfield Abundance comes from the immense influence of Graham Stuart Thomas' valuable book Shrub Roses of Today where in Spray Cecile Brunner is identified as Bloomfield Abundance.
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See also "Glenn Blair" which I believe is the same rose, and both being a shrub sport of 'Madame Alfred Carriere'.
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Are "Al Moise" and "Glenn Blair" still shrubs - or have they shown signs of climbing (as in 'Mme. Alfred Carriere'?)
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