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The process for replying to private messages is confusing. Where is there a button labeled "SEND PRIVATE MESSAGE" ?
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#1 of 1 posted
17 JUL 15 by
 Jay-Jay
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When You go on Your own page to the TAB "Private messages", click on that TAB and look at the upper right side... you'll see, that there is a reply button.
Good luck!
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In the Journal of the RHS for 1922 there is a note that Misters G. Paul of Cheshunt displayed a China Rose 'Dresden China' and that it was "free flowering, sweetly scented ... of moderate size and a pleasing carmine-rose color." This is probably the rose planted by Countess Sophie Beckendorf in the 1920's, later found by Humbphrey Brooke and renamed and reintroduced as "Sophie's Perpetual" in 1960.
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Hello Fred,
The Countess planted them two years later in 1924.
She was Humphrey Brooke's wife's grandmother. See the 1974 reference.
Your reference puts the date back from 1928 to 1922 - at least.
I've never been able to find much on 'Dresden China'.
Quest-Ritson gives a date of c1860.for 'Sophie's Perpetual'
There was another thought that the rose may be 'Sans Epines' 1817.
Patricia
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Humphrey Brooke in the Rose Bulletin (1974 p31) tells the story: "In 1924 Sophie, Countess Benckendorff , my wife's grandmother and the creator of our garden at Lime Kiln, Claydon, Suffolk, planted six specimens of a rose obtained from Paul's nursery under the name 'Dresden China'. Of the four that still survive in full vigour, three have climbed to 20 feet against the house, while the one in an open site has remained a bush of about 3 feet. These roses are usually in bloom on or shortly before May 1 (being invariably the earliest in a collection of over 400 varieties) and continue until the frosts. As a result of one exceptionally mild winter the actual period of flowering covered 13 months. There was then a pause of 6 weeks."
That rose certainly earned its synonym, 'Sophie's Perpetual'!
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Sometimes it is good to read the references. That 1974 reference has been in the file since March, 2011.
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Yes, precisely. I knew of the reference but had not been able to find the original, which, in addition to what had been reported, refers usefully to the length of its flowering season. After all not all roses labelled "perpetual" deserve that description.
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From "Fat Roses: the Perfume Industrey at Grasse" by Louisa Jones, p 61, Hortus no 26, summer 1993. 'Rose de Mai', Centifolia, Gilbert Nabonnand, 1895. Flowers single, plants thornless. Often grafted on 'Indica Major' or 'Fredica', the later a hybrid between 'Indica Major' and 'Multiflor' developed for the perfume industry as an understock.
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#1 of 5 posted
13 FEB 10 by
jedmar
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There is no other source for a centifolia 'Rose de Mai' by Gilbert Nabonnand. Maybe Nabonnand had this rose in his catalogue (south of France), but it was not bred by him.
The oldest source for 'Rose de Mai' I could find is from 1861. It is said to be a synonym of R. centifolia provincialis or a variety of R. damascena. The question is, whether this rose used to be called differently in earlier times.
A probable candidate is 'Rosier des parfumeurs', which was referenced earlier as a Damask and later as a Gallica. This is also possibly a synonym of 'Rose de Puteaux', which in turn is R. belgica Mill., traceable back to the 17th century. Unfortunately, Lindley subsumed R. belgica under R. damascena Mill., although many sources point out differences.
All these roses have in common that they were planted intensively for rose water and perfume in France.
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Yes, I now see that there are earlier references to a Centifolia "Rose de Mai", but do any have descriptions saying it was single and thornless. Does that description appear in your 1861 reference? Is "Rose de Mai" perhaps a local or perfume industry common name for any Centifolia like rose? In which case, what is the cultivar name for the single thornless clone which Jones ascribes to Nabonnand? Is it a form of Rosa centifolia or from some other class of rose? I'm wondering if it might be a seedling from the roses called "centifolia" in India, which are cultivated for producing rose water.
Does someone have a photo of the Grasse Rose de Mai?
In her paper on the perfume industry at Grasse Jones also states that, "A multi-petaled variant, the double May Rose, developed by Lunier, is grown in smaller quantities."
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#3 of 5 posted
14 FEB 10 by
jedmar
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The 1862 reference from "Le Messager Agricole" describes 'Rose de Mai' as single to semi-double, however also as bristly and prickly. This does not conform to the 'Rose de Mai' currently grown in Grasse, which is clearly double. Photos and a video of it are found in the two 2009 references; please click them for the links.
Does Louisa Jones' article have a bibliography?
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Jones' article ends saying "For Riviera rose varieties, see Marie-Therese Haudebourg's forthcoming book about Old Roses from Editions Hachette.
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With reference to your article, I have been trying to find a nursery which will provide me with a Rosa Centifolia de Mai or Grasse since I visited the Grasse ExpoRose in May! Everywhere, this highly perfumed rose was referred to by the locals as the Rose of May or the Rose of Grasse and throughout the town there were baskets of its petals - yet neither Fragonard, the Perfumery in Grasse nor the Tourist Office in Grasse could provide me with any leads to a nursery which would supply me with such a rose - nor could I find anywhere "on line" Why the enormous secrecy?? Please help!
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Even though I am a premium member I am unable to sign in. My name comes up automatically for "Name", but when I click continue it says I am not recognized as a member.
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