PhotoComments & Questions 
Madame Jules Gravereaux  rose photo courtesy of AmiRoses
Discussion id : 40-504
most recent 19 NOV 09 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 15 NOV 09 by Roland
I ask my self, if this rose shown here could me the same , like the picture in the Dickerson
Old Rose Advisor.
I have a rose which exact makes the change from tender creme rose colored in one time(like your picture) and yellow later in the year, like the picture i posted here by HMf

What do you think, are the other pictures shown here look like your.?
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Reply #1 of 5 posted 15 NOV 09 by kai-eric
it is mostly the same.
colour nuances can vary due to computer or screen calibration, also by reproduction in print media.
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Reply #2 of 5 posted 16 NOV 09 by jedmar
Does Dickerson state what the original source of the picture in his book is?
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Reply #3 of 5 posted 17 NOV 09 by billy teabag
Yes - it is from Journal des Roses November 1902.
The accompanying text has been added to HMF references - the complete entry in French, and an English translation of the relevant descriptive section (for which, many thanks to Hillary Merrifield)
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Reply #4 of 5 posted 18 NOV 09 by jedmar
Thank you very much for this important quotation! As you have seen from the discussions, there seem to be different roses in commerce sold in Europe as 'Mme Jules Gravereaux'. We could not yet agree which is the original, and which might be 'Comtesse de Noghera' or something else.
Looking at the photos on HMF, what is your opinion?
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Reply #5 of 5 posted 19 NOV 09 by billy teabag
Thanks Jedmar - you're welcome.
I'm at a disadvantage because I don't grow the rose/s and don't have any personal experience of it/them.
It is good to have the provenance of the rose noted on the photos on hmf - the photos demonstrate - very eloquently - that the blooms of the rose sold as Mme Jules Gravereaux from the same source can show a great variation in colour and form.
Do those who grow more than one plant report any significant difference in the plant habit, shape of foliage, the presence or absence of prickles, fragrance, smoothness or glandularity of pedicels, setting of hips etc?
It can be very useful to arrange and label leaves, buds, prickles etc from the different plants side by side and scan or photograph them.
We have not found any really detailed descriptions of 'Comtesse de Noghera', so it is very hard to know exactly what it should look like but what there is suggests that it should be a shrub Tea rose and not a climber.
'Mme Jules Gravereaux' was sold by many nurseries in Australia from the early 1900s until the late 1930s, but we have yet to find 'Comtesse de Noghera' listed by any Australian nurseries.
Alister Clark grew 'Comtesse de Noghera'. He privately imported many roses from Europe, including a number from Nabonnand and mentioned this rose several times in his articles in the Australian Rose Annuals. He said that it was useful as a garden rose and as a seed and pollen parent, that it was too good to lose and that it was extremely free flowering in the autumn but he did not mention its colour, form or anything else that might help us picture what the rose actually looked like. He described its position in his garden bed:

"Further down a bed contains many ‘Sunny South’, ten footers shaded by an old Dutch monstrous Medlar, and trying to outgrow it. ‘Frau Rose Benary’ and ‘Gruss An Aachen’ have ‘Anna Chartron’ and ‘Comtesse de Noghera’ as company, and ‘Borderer’ edges the bed. Nearby two fine bushes of seedlings from Gigantea entwine and are quite a sight in spring." (1938 Aust Rose Annual) which seems to confirm that it is a shrub and not a climber.

The only other Australian ref we've found to 'Comtesse de Noghera' to date is where it is included in a C1917 inventory of roses in the Adelaide Botanic Gardens, classed as a shrub Tea - no description.
(I'll add these Alister Clark refs to hmf along with any others we find.)

When trying to determine whether roses are the same variable variety, the only way to be quite sure is for those who have the time and the space to grow them together in the same conditions and compare them over the seasons. A lesson in patience! It can take years for the roses to become sufficiently established to make useful comparisons.
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