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Roland
most recent 19 NOV 09 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 15 NOV 09 by Roland
I ask my self, if this rose shown here could me the same , like the picture in the Dickerson
Old Rose Advisor.
I have a rose which exact makes the change from tender creme rose colored in one time(like your picture) and yellow later in the year, like the picture i posted here by HMf

What do you think, are the other pictures shown here look like your.?
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Reply #1 of 5 posted 15 NOV 09 by kai-eric
it is mostly the same.
colour nuances can vary due to computer or screen calibration, also by reproduction in print media.
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Reply #2 of 5 posted 16 NOV 09 by jedmar
Does Dickerson state what the original source of the picture in his book is?
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Reply #3 of 5 posted 17 NOV 09 by billy teabag
Yes - it is from Journal des Roses November 1902.
The accompanying text has been added to HMF references - the complete entry in French, and an English translation of the relevant descriptive section (for which, many thanks to Hillary Merrifield)
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Reply #4 of 5 posted 18 NOV 09 by jedmar
Thank you very much for this important quotation! As you have seen from the discussions, there seem to be different roses in commerce sold in Europe as 'Mme Jules Gravereaux'. We could not yet agree which is the original, and which might be 'Comtesse de Noghera' or something else.
Looking at the photos on HMF, what is your opinion?
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Reply #5 of 5 posted 19 NOV 09 by billy teabag
Thanks Jedmar - you're welcome.
I'm at a disadvantage because I don't grow the rose/s and don't have any personal experience of it/them.
It is good to have the provenance of the rose noted on the photos on hmf - the photos demonstrate - very eloquently - that the blooms of the rose sold as Mme Jules Gravereaux from the same source can show a great variation in colour and form.
Do those who grow more than one plant report any significant difference in the plant habit, shape of foliage, the presence or absence of prickles, fragrance, smoothness or glandularity of pedicels, setting of hips etc?
It can be very useful to arrange and label leaves, buds, prickles etc from the different plants side by side and scan or photograph them.
We have not found any really detailed descriptions of 'Comtesse de Noghera', so it is very hard to know exactly what it should look like but what there is suggests that it should be a shrub Tea rose and not a climber.
'Mme Jules Gravereaux' was sold by many nurseries in Australia from the early 1900s until the late 1930s, but we have yet to find 'Comtesse de Noghera' listed by any Australian nurseries.
Alister Clark grew 'Comtesse de Noghera'. He privately imported many roses from Europe, including a number from Nabonnand and mentioned this rose several times in his articles in the Australian Rose Annuals. He said that it was useful as a garden rose and as a seed and pollen parent, that it was too good to lose and that it was extremely free flowering in the autumn but he did not mention its colour, form or anything else that might help us picture what the rose actually looked like. He described its position in his garden bed:

"Further down a bed contains many ‘Sunny South’, ten footers shaded by an old Dutch monstrous Medlar, and trying to outgrow it. ‘Frau Rose Benary’ and ‘Gruss An Aachen’ have ‘Anna Chartron’ and ‘Comtesse de Noghera’ as company, and ‘Borderer’ edges the bed. Nearby two fine bushes of seedlings from Gigantea entwine and are quite a sight in spring." (1938 Aust Rose Annual) which seems to confirm that it is a shrub and not a climber.

The only other Australian ref we've found to 'Comtesse de Noghera' to date is where it is included in a C1917 inventory of roses in the Adelaide Botanic Gardens, classed as a shrub Tea - no description.
(I'll add these Alister Clark refs to hmf along with any others we find.)

When trying to determine whether roses are the same variable variety, the only way to be quite sure is for those who have the time and the space to grow them together in the same conditions and compare them over the seasons. A lesson in patience! It can take years for the roses to become sufficiently established to make useful comparisons.
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most recent 16 NOV 09 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 15 NOV 09 by Roland
Do you have this Rose in your Garden now and have you ever compared this rose with the common Mme Jules Gravereux?

Was it Climbing, were you took the picture?
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Reply #1 of 2 posted 16 NOV 09 by jedmar
No, I do not have it. The blooms seem more globular than MMe Jules Gravereaux. If I remember correctly, this was a shrub, not a climber. André Eve says "moyenne taille" on his website.
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Reply #2 of 2 posted 16 NOV 09 by Roland
Thank you.
Well, on the Website the rose does not look es full es we expected. It reminds me to my own Comtesse de Noghera similar to Austin Mme Jules Gravereaux. The only thing is, you had seen it growing short and Eve describes it to grow low. But this rose even could flower good when you cut it down each year. I think the Eve rose is what we haveif i see the foto on the website.What do you think?

The problem ordering tearoses at this nursery, you get a quite mixed up selection, were no rose is what it should be..
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most recent 15 NOV 09 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 15 NOV 09 by kai-eric
hello roland,
thank you for showing here this beautiful juxtaposition.
growing a 'mme jules gravereaux' from austin/uk i always had been affected by her characteristically hooked prickles an roundish leaflets, features that are common to the sangerhausen 'mme jules gravereaux' and 'comtesse de noghera' but not shown in the lithograh. in addition leaflets have clearly elongated shape with wavy edges.
soupert&notting themselves describe their creation having 'des fleurs EXCESSIVEMENT grandes' which 'mme jules gravereaux/austin's blossom surely doesn't match achieving a medium size of 8-10 centimeters.
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Reply #1 of 6 posted 15 NOV 09 by Roland
but this Rose HAS expressive large Flowers...
This Rose also is sold as Mme de Tartas Loubert -Branchi- Roseraie du Desert
and sold as Mme Jules Graveraux Guillot -La Campanella (Nursery)
I think, we should count the number of petals;-)
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Reply #2 of 6 posted 15 NOV 09 by kai-eric
sorry if my entry causes confusion. the here shown 'mme jules gravereaux' matches well the lithograph.
plants from other sources frequently do not and are representing another variety, perhaps 'comtesse de noghera'.
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Reply #3 of 6 posted 15 NOV 09 by Roland
you mean MY picture, ore the other ones shown here?;-)
Now I am confused;-)
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Reply #4 of 6 posted 15 NOV 09 by kai-eric
you're absolutely right.
your picture shows a wonderful accordance of blossom characteristics. the shown guillot clone comes nearer to what to expect from the 'true' mme jules gravereaux than what is offered elsewhere.
that's why i felt urgent to point out some features of wrong versions of the gravereaux that might simplify comparisons.
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Reply #5 of 6 posted 15 NOV 09 by Roland
Please have a look to "Amirose" picture Photo Id: 60923m which is on the Page before the first page.
This color of rosy-creme surly ,does the Guilot Mme Juels Graveraeux sometimes do, you must have seen this too. Have a look to the number of petals.
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Reply #6 of 6 posted 15 NOV 09 by kai-eric
my young plant did show only cream and rosy colours this year, so i cannot help out.
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most recent 15 NOV 09 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 14 NOV 09 by jedmar
According to the Tea Book, 'Souv. d'Elise Vardon' in commerce in Australia is 'Mlle Franziska Krüger'.
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Reply #1 of 3 posted 14 NOV 09 by Roland
I allready thought it could be Mlle Franziska Krüger, but this rose might have little smaller , different flowers and sometimes this certain yellow.It is similar to Beales Queen Mab, which probably is wrong too, both roses easily get mildew.
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Reply #2 of 3 posted 15 NOV 09 by billy teabag
It's worth checking whether the pedicel and receptacle are smooth or glandular.
Souv de Elise Varden should have a rough, glandular pedicel and receptacle, Mlle F. Kruger's are smooth.

Do the blooms sometimes develop a green vegetative centre?
Mlle Franzisca Kruger isn't the only rose to do this, but it is prone to green eye.
Other things to check are the colour of the new growth - Mlle F. Kruger has smooth, dark reddish - mahogany-like new growth and leaves which have conspicuously impressed secondary veins, giving a striated effect.
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Reply #3 of 3 posted 15 NOV 09 by Roland
Hello Billy

Just in this moment i do not have access to my english rose description terminologie. So I can´t answer at this time (except Jedmar Helps)
This rose surly has a green eye, i felt it never was so large like the one from Mlle Franzika Krüger. The Rosebud seems to be smaler too.
The young wood is very dark redish and Mahagony like, but quite thorny too.

There are four roses I have to compare which are quite similar but maybe diffrent. Queen Mab Beales, Souvenir d´Elise Vardon, Mlle Franziska Krüger and the Souvenir d´un Ami from Sangerhausen and Andre Eve (Which are similar), the last rose I mentioned, i posted a picture by HMF.Photo Id: 113905
I think the Queen Mab Beales and Souv. d´Elise Verdun Beales, are the same
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