PhotoComments & Questions 
Crested Jewel  rose photo courtesy of Paul Barden
Discussion id : 62-369
most recent 5 MAR 12 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 3 MAR 12 by Jeffrey
Lovely photo! Absolutely lovely! You were using some of the crested roses that came out of Mr. Moore's breeding program. I know you've mentioned your rose breeding is on hiatus, sad news there, but how far into did you go with the cresteds? How difficult was this? I'd love to work with Mr Moore's remarkable roses, 'Crested Jewel' and 'Crested Sweetheart'. The cresting makes me weak ion the knees.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions you might offer.
Jeff
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Reply #1 of 3 posted 4 MAR 12 by Paul Barden
Hi Jeff,
I didn't make any meaningful progress with the crested roses. It is a problematic endeavor; offspring are often weak and/or unhealthy and by the time you have moved into the second generation (from cristata) most of the cresting trait has vanished. I believe the only way to genuinely cement the trait into breeding lines is to back-cross first and second gen hybrids, selecting only the healthiest, strongest plants with abundant cresting. What this means is that for at least one or two more generations, pinks are the only possibility, and remontancy will be hard won. Is such a thing worth pursuing? Probably, for someone willing to dedicate a decade or more to this single goal.

That said, it is worth noting that sterility becomes a huge problem with this line of breeding. Most hybrids from cristata suffer from some degree of sterility. 'Crested Jewel' is the lone individual that doesn't have this problem, but you can be certain the problem will surface once you start crossing 'Crested Jewel' with other varieties. (I have seen it in my own work) You can expect to be roadblocked many times in the search for fertile, healthy crested roses. 'Crested Sweetheart', as lovely as it is, is absolutely sterile. Don't even consider it as a breeding opportunity; its not. It will not make seed, nor will you ever obtain fertile pollen from it. If you want to pursue this trait, start with 'Crested Jewel'. Do NOT cross it with modern Hybrid Tea/Floribunda types; I believe this is where many of the problems arise. Try crosses with more obscure classes of rose, especially primary species hybrids (where at least one parent is a species); this may prove more useful. My only decent crested hybrid from my work was the result of a cross of 'Crested Jewel' and 'Marbree', a remontant Damask. I was lucky, since it has the traits I wanted, decent health and good vigor, and it is also reasonably fertile in both directions.

Good luck if you choose to pursue this difficult task!
Paul
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Reply #2 of 3 posted 5 MAR 12 by Jeffrey
Thanks for your reply, Paul. Good insight. While I do like the crested quality, I'm not sure it's the all desired trait I want to pursue. I did read the article Ralph Moore wrote (on your website) and his comment about the number of blooms harvested for the meager pollen gathered pretty much dissuaded me.

I wonder about ploidy issues. I have friends who breed African violets and others who breed Daylilies. They've used colchicine and other chemicals to double chromosome counts. This sometimes causes otherwise sterile plants to become fertile. Is anyone in rosedom doing this kind of work?

BTW, my passion is old roses, Bourbons, Chinas, Damasks, etc... I also like Ramblers, but my growing space is miniscule... Maybe one day...

Have you ever visited the California Carnivores website? I live not too far and have actually seen their nursery. It's worth checking out, even if only on-line.

So... Thanks again. I'd like to keep in touch. Is this HMF site the best way for you?
Jeff
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Reply #3 of 3 posted 5 MAR 12 by Paul Barden
Quote: "I wonder about ploidy issues. I have friends who breed African violets and others who breed Daylilies. They've used colchicine and other chemicals to double chromosome counts. This sometimes causes otherwise sterile plants to become fertile. Is anyone in rosedom doing this kind of work?"

Ploidy is sometimes an issue in breeding roses, yes. However, in the case of the crested roses Moore bred, and subsequent efforts by other breeders, almost all of the plants generated have been at the tetraploid level. Whatever is causing the severe sterility issues, it isn't the result of mis-matched ploidy. If, for example, you look up Moore's "Queencrest", it resulted from a cross of two known tetraploids: 'Queen Elizabeth' and R. centifloia cristata. Same thing with 'Crested Jewel', but the modern parent was 'Little Darling'. That very same cross also produced 'Crested Sweetheart'. While 'Crested Jewel' is 100% fertile, its sibling 'Crested Sweetheart' is 100% sterile, and yet both are tetraploids. So, in this case, ploidy doesn't appear to play a role. Who knows what the problem is? Not me! (Also, one of the most highly fertile of the "crested" hybrids is 'Closer to Heaven', a triploid! In fact, many of the most fertile roses in breeding programs are in fact triploids, which is contrary to what we have believed about plant genetics in years past)

I am familiar with Pete D'Amato and his California Carnivores nursery. In fact, several plants in my collection came from him! I maintain a Nepenthes house, in fact, having become quite smitten with this remarkable genus. See: nitrogenseekers.wordpress.com

Jeff, if you wish to extend this discussion further, please email me directly, thanks: trospero@gmail.com

Regards,
Paul
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