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Rosaplant - I see you also grow 'Grootendorst Supreme'. Can you please tell us the difference between 'Grootendorst Supreme and 'Signe Relander'?
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Hello Patricia,
Looking at the photos there is almost no diffrence, but when yo grow them you can notice some:
Signe Relander:
- has fragrance ( Grootendorst Supreme not or very delicate)
- is very healthy like typical rugosa ( G.S not alwyes)
- is a nice bush ( G.S is more "messy", shrub is ungraceful)
- flowers are in a bigger clusters then G.S
- in my opinion Signe Relander is a little bit darker than G.S
- in our climate (Poland, 6A USDA) Signe Relander seems to repeat more easily.
There is a very nice book about Rosa rugosa written by Suzanne Verrier. She describes for sure most of avaiable rugosas, and her opinion seems to be very similar to mine. There is also nice sentence about the whole Grootendorst line:
"....writing of another rose, Graham Stuart Thomas spoke of it as "soulless". The Grootendorsts might also be described as "soulless". "
I hope you will this usefull.
Greetings
Kamila
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Thank you so much for that, Kamila. Really I was looking for someone who grows 'F. J. Grootendorst' as well as 'Signe Relander', and when your photograph of 'Signe Relander' took my eye, I looked up your list of plants and saw you also grew 'Grootendorst Supreme'.
Your mention of 'Signe Relander' being a "nice bush" may be particularly helpful. (Do you have any photos of your bush?) I have a New Zealand friend who has written to me about a rose, possibly 'Signe Relander' and I have been trying to help him. He has said:
"......visited a garden in the Maniototo recently which is high country about an hour from where I live. She saw a rose the owner identified as Signe Relander and was struck by the colour. They grow Signe Relander in the Northern Cemetery collection in Dunedin and she believed this rose was different. I contacted the owner and asked for permission to visit. She is a gardener but not particularly into roses. She said she inherited the rose and was told its identity. It is stunning. A large, healthy five foot bush with foliage to the ground and laden with bloom. Definitely red. I notice from your notes that Poulsens describe it as 'dark red' and F.J.Grootendorst as
'carmine'. It is also described as vigorous and always in flower. Our plants of Grootendorst are well finished flowering now. I have never managed to grow Grootendorst as well as the rose I saw and yet the Maniototo has a much harsher climate than ours. It is colder, windier and drier than here."
It just may be that the plants in the Dunedin cemetery with either 'F. J. Grootendorst' or 'Grootendorst Supreme' and the Maniototo rose may well be 'Signe Relander'. At least, they will have a little more to go on now with the identification search. (Isn't this site just wonderful? Here we are with a person from Poland helping a person from Australia, who is helping a person from New Zealand trying to identify a rose.)
My regards,
Patricia
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Hello Patricia,
This is stunning story :) We talk about the same roses living ot the other side of the world.
I would risk opinion then if the shrub is very dense, vigorous and healthy then it is 'Signe Relander'. I am aware that those two varieties are very similar, especially when they are small in pots - there is a very big chance that they were misslabeled many times during growing, selling etc.
I will look for a photo of the whole bush of 'Signe Relander', maybe I will find something. I can send you also scans from this book which I mentioned about Rugosa. Please contact me on my e-mail then:
Greetings
Kamila
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We look forward to your photos one day Kamila. This is a long process, this identifying roses business. One has to wait until you can visit again; until the bush is blooming; until you remember, etc. etc. I have pointed out our Comments to the New Zealand friend and I know he will be thankful for your knowledge. I have Suzanne Verrier's two books (on gallicas and rugosas) and HelpMeFind does have her 1993 reference included for 'Signe Relander'. But I thank you very much for your kind offer.
"Souless". Did Graham Thomas say that? If so, I think he was talking through his hat. I have often picked a cluster of 'Pink Grootendorst' for the table and it is perfectly arranged for a small vase. No florist could do it better than the plant itself. I would pick 'F. J. Grootendorst' too if I hadn't planted the bush so far into the bed, but snakes are a danger in summer. However on my search for more information I did go in and get a couple of clusters. It too is just as beautiful for the table.
(Best to delete your email address from your reply, Kamila as it attracts spam to the site.)
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I used to grow 'Pink Grootendorst' for employers a few years ago. It was used as a cut flower and very pretty it looked. But as a garden plant it grew about 2m high and wide and rather like 'Carmenetta' looked rather course. Also the older branches had a habit of dying back suddenly. Just ordered Suzanne Verrier's books.
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Yes Andrew I have noticed the same with F.J Grootendoorst - older branches sometimes die suddenly without any visible reason.
Patricia - I think many depends with this Grootendoorst line from a place where they are grown. Maybe your climate is just better for F.J. ? However, Pink Grootendorst in my opinion is better here in Poland then F.J (which I think I don't like when I have Signe Relander.... ), Pink G. is maybe also not so nice bush, but flowers are beautiful.
Graham Thomas used word 'soulless' to some other rose, Suzanne just used that to describe Grootendorst line ( page 21 in Rosa rugosa from S. Verrier).
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