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One or more site guests believe this photo is incorrectly labeled or inaccurate !
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In this religious iconographic type during Renaissance, only two rose varieties are a constant:
'Alba Maxima'
and
'Alba Incarnata'
In France for the XVIth and XVIIth we also have plenty depictions of these roses in the "Vierge du Rosaire".
On many works these roses are truely represented: 'Alba Maxima' and 'Alba Incarnata'.
The Alba roses were always linked with Mary and her iconography, never other roses (like gallicas or centifolias), in exception maybe in Germany of the "Tapeten Rose" which is the Rosa x Francofurtana.
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Do you happen to know what is the earliest representation of alba suavolens? Do you think maxima is a sport of suavolens, or is it the other way around?. It is entirely possible that a rose with many petals can sport to one with fewer, as shown by SDLM which sported to a lovely semi double rose.
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#2 of 4 posted
9 FEB 22 by
Hamanasu
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Thank you, this is great information. You are clearly more knowledgeable than me, and I'm happy to stand corrected. I do think that identification of a rose in a painting, however, should be based primarily on the features of the plant represented. Of course, the fact that the Virgin Mary was conventionally associated with alba roses could be used to *confirm* the identity of a rose that visual cues have identified as an alba rose to begin with... But are the features of the plant depicted consistent with an alba rose? If not, that seems significant, for after all representational canons in art can be broken. It might even be that the painter had no intention of breaking the representational canon and *thought* he was painting an alba rose, when in fact he chose the wrong specimen and painted a centifolia instead. The point of historical interest to me is if Rosa centifolia alba existed at the time the painting was completed. If our records say 'No', or 'Not sure', but the rose looks more like a centifolia alba than anything else, then this is potentially exciting new evidence that might persuade us to revise our records. The white-flowered plant on the left of the painting (this side of the screen) -- with its gangly habit, sparse foliage, prickly stems all the way up to the bloom, etc. -- screams much more 'Centifolia Alba' at me than 'Alba'....
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Thank you for your reply Hamanasu. I don't think this painting of Bernardino Luini is breaking any convention: in their workshops, painters had references and because they were close to ecclesiastics, Alba roses were more than quite common in their lives. Every Spring alba roses were placed on altars...
If you look closely on the picture on Wikipedia at its full size, you can notice few morphologic details which all point out to Alba roses.
For the white rose on the left:
- Ovaries are narrower at their summit, it is never the case with the 'White Provence'. The white centifolia, which also grows in my garden, like other old centifolias, has an elongated ovary which is straight to its junction with the calyx.
- Opening buds are showing white petals, and not the first external red petals of the white gallicanae as 'White Provence', 'Léda', 'Vierge de Cléry', 'Blanchefleur', etc.
- Sepals of the closed buds are foliaceous like those of the Alba roses, not the centifolias.
- Foliage, maybe less flagrant at first sight, but here typical of Albas with very large leaflets and round in shape, not long and ovoidal.
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#4 of 4 posted
9 FEB 22 by
Hamanasu
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Thank you for a fantastic reply! You are absolutely right about the sepals and ovaries (thank you for taking the time to educate me!). On closer inspection, the shape of the buds also perhaps looks a little less stubby than seems to be the case on centifolias. The foliage, as you concede, is less obviously alba, and a better quality picture of the painting would help. One feature, though, seems confusing. In the painting the prickles go very thickly all the way up to the peduncle. This does not seem to be the case with alba maxima, where the upper part of the stem seems invariably thornless (as far as I can see on hmf pictures); it is however, a distinctive feature of centifolia alba. Any ideas? Are there other alba candidates that fit the painting better than alba maxima in this respect?
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