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'Jacques Cartier' rose Reviews & Comments
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Initial post
5 SEP 13 by
Tessie
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I have a rose purchased as Marquesa Boccellla from the Antique Rose Emporium in Texas. It is a very small grower, really like a dwarf (2 1/2 feet afer almost 3 years, and arriving already as a big plant in a 2 gallon container) but very healthy and with plenty of clean foliage. Flowers are very fragrant and flat. The flowers do not fit the description of Jacques Cartier as they are pale pink all over, not darker in the center at all, nor could they be described as "deep pink" (per "Le Rose", 1890 page 149) no matter in which month they've been blooming in my garden. The early descriptions (note HMF references from the 1800s) describe the flowers as globular and the growth as vigorous. According to "The Ultimate Rose Book" (1993, an HMF-listed reference) Jacques Cartier is said to be the offspring of Baronne Prevost, and that rose is very, very tall around here, and with a similar growth habit.
The problem here is that HMF has the 2 roses, Marquesa Boccella and Jacques Cartier, listed as synonyms of one another, as if to say they are the same rose. Certainly there may be roses in commerce mistakenly sold as the other, but how does it help matters to say 2 different roses, bred more than 20 years apart by 2 different breeders (Bred by Jean Desprez (France, 1842). Bred by Robert and Moreau (France, 1868.), are one and the same? Even if many of the roses in commerce as Jacques Cartier are really Marqusa Boccella, what happens if someone has the real Jacques Cartier? Must they list it on HMF as Marquesa Boccella and extend another id problem into the future?
I really have to wonder if they don't have the correct Jacques Cartier in some places in Europe. Whether they do or not, the real Marquesa Boccellas should not be called by the wrong name, especially knowingly. Perhaps HMF could just put a note at the bottom of the Jacques Cartier description page and note that many in commerce *in the US* are incorrectly being sold as Jacques Cartier.
Melissa
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#1 of 14 posted
6 SEP 13 by
 jedmar
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I agree that the current solution is unsatisfactory. The reason seems to have been that ARS has decided that all Jacques Cartier are actually Marchese Boccella. In Europe, this rose is sold mostly as Jacques Cartier. We also have indications that there are different clones in commerce, some more compact, some sturdy-growers.
For historic clarity, the two roses should be separated on HMF. The negative aspect will be that assigning photos, gardens, nurseries to one or the other will be a mess and will indicate a differentiation which is impossible to make without seeing the roses in situ.
Other comments on this subject are very welcome.
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That will likely be the problem here, too, Jedmar. I first became aware of this confusion somewhere around 1984-85. As with many other confused rose identification issues, there were those who were positive theirs was the one, true "real one". However, I've never encountered a rose sold as either name which wasn't the SAME rose. Whether they are actually one or the other, who can ever really know? But, the same rose has always been supplied as both names in commerce here in the US, except when the one supplied has been an obvious mistake, such as the once flowering type distributed as the "continual flowering" plant. Otherwise, what we have in commerce in the US is all the same. I wish someone could discover the "real" version of each, but after all these decades, I seriously doubt it will happen.
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#3 of 14 posted
7 MAR 15 by
flodur
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1. The ARS is not god
2. The rose was bred in France, so the name has to be 'Marquise Boccella', allthough the correct name of the Marquis is Marchese Cesare Boccella.
3. 'Marquise Boccella' and 'Jacques Cartier' are two different roses, you just have to look at them and compare ALL DETAILS!
4. I didn't know. that HMF is now an organisation working for the rose nurseries and no longer dedicated to roses, as it was said on your page in the very beginning.
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HMF is not working for the ARS, rose nurseries or anyone else. It is a database which provides historic, "official" information from published references AND the personal experience of those generous enough to share it. What has been experienced here in the US has been shared. What would be wonderful, should you have the ability and desire to do it, since you appear to have access to what may be the original Marchese, is for you to write an article with accompanying photographs of the details, comparing what should be the original and the impostor for the HMF EZine.
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#5 of 14 posted
7 MAR 15 by
flodur
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If that is the case - and I am happy about it - than you should make two roses out of it: 'Marquise Boccella' with the synonyme 'Marchesa Boccella' and 'Jacques Cartier'. It is not necessary to write an article about it. What grows in some gardens in USA is different from what is growing in some gardens in Germany and that is already documented.
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"HMF is an organization working for rose nurseries" ? And you arrived at this ridiculous and insulting statement based on what exactly?
HMF has been a labor of love for more than a decade with many wonderful people freely giving of their time and energy to help maintain it.
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#9 of 14 posted
8 MAR 15 by
flodur
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Honi soit qui mal y pense!
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It was my understanding, I do not at the moment remember from where, that one of the two had been lost from commerce, and its' name applied to the other.
It would seem that one rose is using both names in North America. If you or someone else in Europe grows or has access to both cultivars, perhaps someone could post pictures of each and give details of provenance?
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L'Haÿ (Val de Marne) lists 4 different varieties of Jacques Cartier and one "MARQUISE BOCCELLA".
If you do a search with Jacques Cartier and then click on images you can see all 4.
I'll add a screen capture.
http://www.roseraieduvaldemarne.fr/roseraie/?page=65
For MB check for MARQUISE BOCCELLA.
Difference between the two according to them:
JC: Bush size medium, strong fragrance, blooms in flushes, very floriferous
MB-Bush size: big, medium fragrance, always in flower,medium floriferousness
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So, I've just planted a 'Jacques Cartier' grown by David Austin, do you think it will actually be this rose or 'Marquesa Boccellla'?
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#12 of 14 posted
16 MAR 17 by
true-blue
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It depends where they sourced it.
And it will take several years in order for you to be able establish, which is which, i.e. assuming that the "descriptions" correspond, and i.e. if the descriptions are accurate :-)
Bottom line, what matters most is that you enjoy the rose, regardless its name.
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Yes that is so very true, they both are beautiful roses and I will post some pictures in a few months when it is in flower. It was grown by David Austin, Austin roses are quite ubiquitous in most garden centres
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#14 of 14 posted
17 DEC 20 by
Duchesse
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I know it's been awhile since your post, but this David Austin question has been on my mind. I see they sell alot of damask looking roses. They are getting a name as David Austin roses. But that company is merely selling some old roses and some of their own new breeding. Jacques Cartier is a very old rose, well before David Austin's time......sheesh.
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I think that's a misinterpretation - the Auston nursery/ies sell old and new roses, but don't claim to have bred the old ones.
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I grow several old garden roses that have varying degrees of remontancy. 'Rosa de Resht' blooms sporadically throughout the summer after the first main flush but unless the weather is very dry (which is rare in my location), it will quickly be infested with blackspot. 'Duchess of Portland' usually makes some effort to reflower but it is one of the worst culprits for blackspot with leaves not having any green areas remaining by mid-summer. This year after a hot dry June and July never even attempted any new growth or flowers when finally in August we had some rain. 'Quatre Saisons Blanc Mousseux' is quite healthy but the "autumn" flowering in August is rather brief and sparse. 'Stanwell Perpetual' is healthy and reflowers well although after July it never has more than two or three flowers out right through to October and never really makes much of a display despite the individual blooms and buds being very beautiful. 'Agnes' tries to have a second flush but usually quite late and the weather in September is starting to become to cold and wet for the blooms to open properly with many just remaining as buds. This year it bloomed well again in August but this was exceptional. But for health and quantity of flower this rose 'Jacques Cartier' or 'Marchesa Boccella' or whatever it's called far out does the rest. I cut half a dozen blooms for a friend yesterday and it has hardly dented the display. In my climate with cool damp summers it grows about 1.2M and is as good as any modern rose. Its growth is very like a hybrid-perpetual.
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L’agriculteur praticien revue de l’agriculture francaise et etrangere 1844 page 183
Rosiers hybrides remontants
.. Marquise Virginie Boccella, blanc rosé
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I have the same problems echoed by others: Jacques Cartier's scent is light, not strong - nothing spectacular to be worth the space it occupies. The bloom is really small in partial shade, the leaves are weedy. I have a hard time liking this rose. Its prickles get bigger as it grows bigger. The shape if gangly, and it blooms low on the bush, rather than at the tip. It's healthy in my alkaline soil, but the scent is VERY disappointing.
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Ohhhh, I experience the complete opposite. Even as a tiny baby plant the scent of Marchesa Boccella is absolutely divine! The fragrance is very damask/honeysuckle combo. My soil is rock hard clay, full of rocks and very poor nutrients, very little earthworms in the untilled area. I do scatter coffee grinds and feed with Gardenville though. Also, baby roses can throw one off. I had a 100% genuine Climbing Etoile de Hollande that was supposed to be deeply fragrant (EdH being famous for intense fragrance), but 2 out of its 3 first blooms were of little or no! scent. It was not until the 3rd bloom that something started to activate so that I could tell in subsequent time it would eventually gain its reputed fragrance. Temps, time of planting, soils, I'm thinking all these have possible factors???? EdH and Marchesa did a 180 swap; huge flowers - no fragrance; teeny-weeny flowers - powerhouse fragrance. Go figure, lol!
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Thank you Organic Roses! You spare me Jacques Cartier's life. I was about to kill that ragged weedy thing. You are right that the first bloom doesn't smell good. My first "Heirloom" bloom had no smell, but the second one smelled like yummy spicy floral sweet (I Love it). Jacques is in very poor soil and neglected (I was hoping he would die). I'll give him a second chance.
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Hi, and Rosie Smiles! I also had to re-read more carefully-- you are in partial shade, but if you have too much shade most! roses get gangly, so you may want to thin out your plants surrounding it. My baby Marchesa Boccella is very graceful, it drapes very elegantly and is full of lovely leaves even in the heat (but I make sure it's well watered), whereas my friend has a gorgeous established Marchesa B., which is a very pretty rounded bush shape instead of my draping baby version. She is too shy to be on HMF, but her roses are BEAUTIFUL, especially her Marchesa Boccella! It is because of her that I got mine. She does say it is one of the most fragrant in her garden, and I would say the same thing too about my baby M.B. I also forgot the rose gardener I met at Costco with his 150 roses. He too says M.B.is outstanding in fragrance. I think organic fertilizers like Gardenville can make a huge difference. But be very, very careful. In the Midwest the heat is a total killer!!! So everything has to be watered down to about 1/10th strength, no matter what fertilizer you choose, or else the roots will burn and you'll end up with a dead-as-a-doornail plant. ! never had a plant keel over from coffee grinds, though, and the earthworms love it :D. You might try transplanting a few earthworms into that bad soil region and put them with banana peels to feed off of.
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Thank you, Organic Roses - much appreciated. I moved Jacques Cartier to more sun 2 months ago, and I will dig up some worms to put in that spot. My soil is tested by Earthco. to be deficient in potassium, necessary for blooms and stem strength. I can't put banana peels there since it's a hilly spot, and the strong wind here blows the peels on my lawn. You are right about chemical fertilizer burns roses in the heat, I only use alfalfa meal in the summer. Here's the link to salt index of chemical fertilizers: http://bulletin.ipm.illinois.edu/article.php?id=1305
Thank you for any info. on roses that give abundant cut flowers.
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Hi! I will be corresponding by PM on details, lol! :D
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Straw, how did this rose turn out for you? I've had it recommended for my hot area but scent is most important. Thanks!
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When I had JC as own-root, I didn't realize that Old Garden Rose need acidic rain water to bloom. It was stingy with my alkaline tap water (pH 9), and also stingy to a friend in CA with alkaline tap. It did bloom for me in a loamy potting soil with acidic rain, one tiny bloom & nice scent, but MUCH STINGIER than Comte de Chambord, which has a larger bloom and blooms easily.
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Thanks for the information! CdC was actually my first choice today but ARE said that it just doesn't do well in our heat and that's why they don't carry it. They did recommend JC but that's good to know about the water.
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They are right, JC does best in full-sun, while Comte de Chambord takes partial shade well. Lots of people love Comte de Chambord, but lots of complaints about JC, either the scent is average, stingy, or blooms are small. Comte is cute, but JC is huge.
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Thanks for your input, appreciate it!
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