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"Caldwell Pink" rose Reviews & Comments
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Initial post
9 MAY 23 by
 Ritch
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This year, during an unusually long cool spring for the Southeast U.S., my Caldwell pink aka In commerce as Pink Pet, is fragrant, especially in the morning. It's never been fragrant before. Odd. So is my Violette, for the first time.
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It'd be pretty funny if this was bred from Old Blush x White Pet, making it a fairly direct name translation.
Edit: To clarify, I made this comment because it was shown in a study to be more closely related to Noisettes than typical Chinas or Wichurana types. Specifically, Champney's, Blush, and Manetti noisette types. White Pet is half noisette and half Rosa sempervirens (as far as we understand), which could account for the unique foliage compared to wichurana-type polyanthas and the closer genetic testing to noisette roses.
Although the Old Blush part would more likely be off. It is more closely related to tea/chinas than chinas/red chinas.
The study is already in the references for Pink Pet (in commerce), so no need to dig too deep.
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I just wanted to confirm that as a second year grafted plant it is probably 4.5' tall. It sent up huge basals in the spring, blooming later than others only to be eaten by deer. However, that did not deter it and it's COVERED in blooms once again. I'll be planting another two in this difficult bed at the foot of a hill with marginal sun ASAP! Also, I'm perplexed as to why noone smells any scent on this rose. While dead-heading I was wondering what had such a wonderful fresh fragrance when PP was the only thing in bloom. It turns out it was her!!!! The scent to my nose is strong clove. I wish I knew which group of roses is known for this; I've read it some where.
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I think it should be noted that the original identity of the rose we grow as 'Pink Pet' is unknown, but that it is almost certainly not the true 'Pink Pet'. It is the same as "Caldwell Pink," and its leaves, prickles, etc., indicate Polyantha-like growth, probably with some R. setigera in its background, but almost no China characteristics other than that it reblooms a lot.
It is also known that this specific rose was first called 'Pink Pet' by a Florida rosarian who wanted to show it in ARS-sanctioned rose shows, and so she needed a registered rose name to call it. Since local judges didn't know what a real 'Pink Pet' looked like, she adopted that name for it, somewhat randomly, according to the story I've heard.
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It seems to me that, ideally, we should have two files. One for the original
CHINA. 'Pink Pet' (China, Lilley 1928) and another for the
POLYANTHA.
This second file should contain
"Pink Pet in Commerce as" (renamed from the current 'Pink Pet')
"Caldwell Pink"
"Bermuda's Pink Pet"
What do you think, Malcolm?
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Reply
#2 of 12 posted
11 JUL 16 by
mmanners
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That sounds reasonable to me.
Malcolm
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Okay, done. If anyone believes they have the original china, instead of the polyantha, would they move their photos and let us know.
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#4 of 12 posted
4 OCT 17 by
Tearose
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I was reading references and comments here to see why the roses we have - Pink Pet and "Caldwell Pink", which are identical, were placed in the poly class, when they look like China roses to me. Polyanthas are dwarf multifloras, and have fringed stipules. I see no fringing on the stipules of these roses. The leaf shape of China roses is distinctive and that's what I'm seeing here. From what I've read, there is likely something besides China in its breeding, but I don't see where that would make it a polyantha.
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Polyanthas are dwarf synstylae types. Not always multiflora-derived.
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Yes, it 's a ragbag for "nowhere else to put them". Eg Little White Pet as a repeat-blooming dwarf of Felicite Perpetue.
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#7 of 12 posted
9 OCT 17 by
Tearose
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I suppose we should create a new class: Dwarf Shrub. Since Shrub is the catch-all for bushes of highly varied ancestry, it would make sense for there to be a dwarf equivalent. Anyway, I still think we don't need two listings for this rose- in commerce as and original China. I think they are the same, and the breeding is more China than poly. Possible China-Noisette?
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Oh. Yeah, the class system is garbage. I don't know a nicer word for it. Outdated, maybe? But there is no excuse for it to be outdated.
The UK has a more refined system that is closer to ideal than most.
'Mother's Day' could be called many-flowered bush, for example.
'The Fairy' could be called many-flowered groundcover.
'Bonica' could be called many-flowered shrub.
'Baby Love' could be called many-flowered miniature.
And the buying public wouldnt need 50 society meetings to figure it out...
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#9 of 12 posted
10 OCT 17 by
mmanners
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In saying that it was Polyantha-like, I was not suggesting any genetic relationship; rather, it has tight, frequent branching, tight heads of large numbers of small flowers, and those flowers tend to have pointy petals -- all very un-China-like. Also, the foliage is unique -- deeply serrated, matte, turning brilliant orangey-red in autumn (even here in Florida), and with an amazing susceptibility to powdery mildew, but near immunity to black spot.
So it really doesn't fit with Chinas. It has been suggested that it may be a hybrid of R. setigera, and I could certainly believe that. And setigera is Synstylae. I'd agree that there is no evidence of multiflora in its background.
Malcolm
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Sorry, I didn't intend to sound critical. The subject is frustrating to me, because I see it as a barrier between us (those with knowledge) and the common public in terms of growing roses.
As my generation comes into buying power, the easier roses are accessible in both nomenclature and ease of care, the more popular the rose could become.
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#11 of 12 posted
11 OCT 17 by
mmanners
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Oh certainly no offense taken, Michael. I just thought I should explain my use of the term. Best wishes. Malcolm
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I stumbled upon this again. Based on its hetero ratio, closeness and disparity to traditional chinensis groups, strange foliage, inclusion of the enamel type found in tea-derived chinas, level of hardiness, strange peduncles, ploidy, petal count, and button eye, I think a Rosa setigera is possible if the setigera type was one of those setigera x noisette types and the other parent is a polyantha type bred from china-teas. There is likely some level of commonality and disparity between the parents of this rose. Or, if it is a self, then a commonality and disparity between the parents of the parent that was selfed and produced seed.
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