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"Joseph Falconer" rose Reviews & Comments
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Initial post
3 MAR 23 by
 Usami
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How prickly is this rose on the main canes?
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The plant I have now is quite young. It is a found rose, and I'm not sure of the identification (because I think the flowers are small, not medium). The main canes at the base are very prickly.
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Perhaps 'Malton' (syn 'Fulgens') 1828 should be considered for this foundling.
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Excellent suggestion.
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#2 of 3 posted
11 JAN 21 by
StefanDC
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You might be interested in knowing that the rose found in Australia as "Joan's Pantry" is a dead ringer for one here in the U.S. that I also believe to be the true 'Malton'. The rose here has been sold incorrectly under the name 'Rose Edouard', and I obtained my plant under that name from Rogue Valley Roses. I suspect that a clue to that misidentification may be found on a plant in the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden that was labeled "Lykke's Not R. bourboniana/Rose Edouard", and was donated by Fred Boutin (maybe the "Not" part of that was omitted from some material floating around). You can find photos of this clone here under the listing for R. x borboniana (IDs 144682, 144680, and 144679). The photos and descriptions here of "Joan's Pantry" are completely indistinguishable from the rose that I grow.
Stefan
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Thank you. I have a slight uncertainty about it, in that I would call the flowers on my plant small rather than medium.
It's a pretty thing.
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Written in The Royal Horticultural Society encyclopedia of roses : "The flowers appear intermittently throughout the season after the first abundant flush" ; "Repeats well".
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The page for the Hybrid China Malton has the note: Tasman Bay roses carries the Bourbon by this name. Maybe there are two roses with the name, one repeat-flowering and not on hmf, one spring-only.
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I think ThomasR is pointing out that the author in Para 1 says “repeats well”; and in para 2 says “flowers appear intermittently throughout the season”.
More or less saying in the first breath - good repeat; and in the second breath - a so-so repeat
As far as I can see, Tasman Bay Roses are no longer carrying Malton. Fulgens or 'Gloire de Guérin and so I have deleted that old Note.
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#3 of 10 posted
24 APR 20 by
ThomasR
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The note in the book is about the hybrid China, it seems to me that the picture is showing the same rose, except for the colour which is mauve, but I know it is not always easy to capture. The flowering of a rose is an important aspect but I sometimes notice that from one source to another there can be different informations about it, or sometimes between text and experience. Pierre de Ronsard as an example is a popular rose in France, it is supposed to be almost continuously flowering but last year, even though we had a very hot summer I noticed that some of the ones I could see had no repeat at all.
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Early references say Malton doesn't repeat.
I guess every major book / author / rose grower can be allowed an occasional error.
Looking at early references, I am doubting that "Joan's Pantry" / "Joseph Falconer" is Malton. Apart from a few (probably copies of one) which say large, all refer to medium-sized flowers. "Joan's Pantry" has small flowers.
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I’ve put the 1835-31 reference into “translate” and come up with:
Loose panicle, consisting of 6 to 7 2-inch flowers. 6 lig. diam. [5.4 cm].
I think this is close to your 2011 reference of “about 5cm”.
It would be good to have other growers’ average bloom size.
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#6 of 10 posted
24 APR 20 by
ThomasR
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Yes, I have the 2003 version of the encyclopedia which states 6cm as flower size, height 4m / spread 3m. I mentioned the book in case someone would assess of its repeat-flowering. Also I just saw Roseraie Du Désert is having the large-flowered version with a button-eye.
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I wonder if the 1848-62 reference could have any relevance to the repeat flowering question.
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#8 of 10 posted
27 APR 20 by
ThomasR
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Patricia your allusion to the 1848 reference remminded me of the rose descriptions that recommend dead-heading to promote some repeat so I checked Peter Beales' Classic Roses which describes Fulgens/Malton as a repeat-flowering, mildly fragrant, 1.5x1.2 rose. The picture shows a rose that looks like the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden picture, more of a pompon with yellowy green leaves.
This is triggering many questions in my mind ! I'm sorry, my comments/questions tend to be long, and I have no knowledge on the subject.
-Was it usual for a rose name to be changed just 6 years after its breeding, did Malton sound problematic in France or England ? Was the rose usurped ? The 1831 reference is qualifying it as a modest name for a rose. By the way fulgens in latin means brillant, as fulgur means flash of lightning. At first it reminded me of the French adjective fulgurant which also means lightning as sudden and intense, and I thought it could refer to a prolific once-bloomer, but fulgens is apparently more about the color/aspect.
-The 1849 reference is praising its ability to force "admirably". Does someone know if back then we forced once bloomers, maybe for contest or selling purpose, or if that technique was limited to the cut-flower industry to make repeat bloomers bloom more often ? Would a once-bloomer repeat in forçage conditions ?
-Will a rose sometimes producing 2 or 3 flowers during Autumn or Winter be considered a once-bloomer or an occasional repeat rose ?
-The Royal Horticultural Society Encyclopaedia Of Roses is depicting a crimson flower with "much paler reverses". I feel like I can see that aspect in the photos as well as in the 1896 illustration, but I can't say if it is a light and shade effect, is it due to texture or are the petals actually paler ? The 1896 description of the same source is describing a "shiny/brilliant cherry carmine red". It feels strange to me that ditinctively paler reverses wouldn't have been mentioned in early descriptions, unless many other roses of that time shared that feature. There are three descriptions of Triomphe De Guerin mentioning that characteristic, although the flowers are said to be large.
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I can’t comment on the Peter Beales photo, but note the San Jose photos have been marked as incorrect.
The rose started out life as ‘Malton’ in 1828. There is no explanation on who first used ‘Fulgens’ as a synonym and it would be good to have a little more from the 1834 and 1835 references. Can anyone else add to these references?
I saw “Joseph Falconer” at Rookwood in 2003. I think it was in the Long Bed, so it was at a distance of some feet. My impression was that it had very silver backs and was a small bloom. I would loved to have had it but it never came my way.
Wandering around the mine of references, I’ve looked at the four 1st generation seedlings of ‘Malton’:
1833 ‘Gloire de Guerin’ a SHORT repeating red/crimson with white undertones. 6.8-7cm wide. Guerin.
1833 ‘Rose de Psyche’ pink. Hyb china. Guerin.
1843 ‘Pompon’ light pink hyb China. Lacharme.
1889 ‘Gruss an Wien’ large HP. Geschwind
I have also added the 1845 reference to ‘Malton’ wherein Mauget bred from Malton (“some good re-bloomers pretty much of the same shade – sanguine purple”) but HelpMeFind does not appear to have any of them listed and I can only presume they were never sent out.
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#10 of 10 posted
28 APR 20 by
ThomasR
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Thank your for all the information ! I am having a hard time trying to identify roses that are more recent, I can't imagine all the research and deduction it requires when it comes to older roses with no or just one picture !
I have seen the Mauget reference, and I just realised that the adjective Fulgent existed in English ! Concerning size and colour, I am wondering if the people whose descriptions were not copies or translations of previous ones had access to mature plants back then.
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Margaret, I have noted an item in the superb book “The Oxford Companion to Australian Gardens” 2002, page 556 in the chapter on Fred Caley Smith and the Aldgate Nursery. The last sentence says: “after her [Mrs. Caley Smith’s] death the property became Mrs. Barclay’s Tearooms and Gardens in the 1920s-30s.” Was this an earlier naming of Joan’s Pantry? I think Aldgate is about 13 ks from Hawthorndene, but if you can find an early Aldgate catalogue, you might find an answer to “Joan’s Pantry” and "Hawthorndene Tennis Court South Rambler”.
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Joan's Pantry is a fair way from Aldgate, and about two tiers down in terms in altitude of the Adelaide Hills. It was established in 1920.
However the Aldgate catalogue would be of interest for other reasons. Eg the next little township, Mylor, has what may be Geschwind's Orden on the fence of an old cottage. Importing Geschwind roses would have been unusual.
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Only the date was all the two tea houses had in common.
Mrs.Barclay’s Tea House was at 1 Wilpena Road, Aldgate.
Joan’s Pantry is at 7 Watahuna Avenue, Hawthorndene.
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