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'Lubra' rose Reviews & Comments
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The parentages of some of the Fitzhardinge roses are quoted as follows:
‘Kitty Bice’ 1932 (Ophelia Climbing x Lady Waterlow)
‘Lubra’ 1938 (Ophelia Climbing x unknown) x Black Boy.
‘Governor Phillip’ <1939. (Ophelia x unknown) x Black Boy.
I feel that the ‘Kitty Bice’ parentage points the way to Ophelia Climbing being the more logical for ‘Governor Phillip’, but have no proof.
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At the Morwell Centenary Rose Garden, I note a specialised Australian and New Zealand breeders' section was planted out in 1994.
Eric, in your photos of Lubra at Morwell, you mention bloom size is 10cm and 11cms and in your Jan 31 comment “over 4 inches”. I cannot equate that size is the following references. 1939 medium; 1940 small; 1940 not large; 1950 small; 1999 [Golden Vale] 8cm.
From the comments I am picking up provenances of:
VERSION A. From somewhere-1; David Ruston-2; Mistydowns*-3; Werribee-4(since died).
Apparently (your comment Feb 1& 2) this rose was ‘Blackboy’.
(*I note your comments:
2014 Feb 2: Mistydowns do not endorse any dark red climber at Werribee as 'Lubra'.
2014 March 14: Mistydowns no longer sell Lubra, which they remember as a bush with small flowers.
And yet Mistydowns catalogued ‘Lubra’ as a climber’ only in 2000 and 2002 and in no other year.)
VERSION B. From somewhere-1; Either Treloar#-2; or Golden Vale**-2; Morwell-3; Nieuwesteeg-4;
#Barry Johnson in the Australian Rose Annual 2008-54, gave credit to Treloar Roses for most of the roses at the Morwell Rose Garden. No listing of ‘Lubra’ has been found in Treloar catalogues.
** 2014 Mar 4. Eric: About six years ago the proprietor of Golden Vale told me he got many of his hybrid teas from David Ruston in South Australia.
Has anybody approached the Morwell Garden for the specific provenance of the plant in situ?
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Patricia, what is now called the Morwell Centenary Rose Garden was planted out from 1994. The same people have been doing the planting ever since and, after consulting their written records, tell me 'Lubra' was planted there in 1999. It, like nearly all the Australian roses there, came from Golden Vale in Benalla. At that time Golden Vale had the biggest collection of Australian roses in any nursery, as Peter Cox says in his book from that period. And, yes, Golden Vale told me they in turn had got many of their roses for Morwell from David Ruston.
Probably most of the Morwell roses came from Treloars, but not the Australian ones. There need be no disparity between Barry Johnson's claims and mine.
At about that time Mistydowns sold a rose as 'Lubra' to the Victoria State Rose Garden. The VSRG planted it next to its parent 'Black Boy'. 'Lubra' died, leaving 'Black Boy' next to the label for 'Lubra', thus misleading many people, including the VSRG director and me, until John Nieuwesteeg straightened us out. Mistydowns still have 'Lubra' on their computer database as a low shrub with small, dark red, well-scented flowers — not a climber. I have checked this personally. But Mistydowns have not grown it for many years. The owners believe their stock originally came from Treloars, but obviously can't be sure. One can guess they thought they had a true 'Lubra' climber 2000–2002 but realised they were mistaken.
Finally, variant reports of 'Lubra's size of bush and bloom. When I first saw 'Lubra' at Morwell it was four feet high and the flowers were four inches across. Morwell assure me the plant I saw was the selfsame plant they put in the Australian beds in 1999. These (rough and rounded) measurements coincide with most of the published records. That is the bush and its flowers in the photos I first put on HMF. However, when I went back a year later the bush was a foot higher and the flowers an inch wider. Morwell explained the difference: they had installed a drip watering system and they had begun regular feeding of the roses with Go-Go Juice. They did not infer, but I did, that the rose Fitzhardinge bred in the lushest enclave of Sydney was genetically the same as the rose described by writers in the harder country further south, but much better grown.
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Thanks Eric. That is concise. So it might be that the provenance is
VERSION B. From David Ruston-1; Golden Vale-2; Morwell-3; Nieuwesteeg-4.
Keep an eye on the bloom size when you can.
(I am sure I recall that the ferty company rep in Launceston told us they had discontinued [?] "Go-Go Juice" because it needed a certain temperature to work.)
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Yes. Just to complete a few provenances, Stan Nieuwesteeg has 'Lubra' now because he took cuttings from Morwell this autumn. He didn't get it from his brother John because John no longer has any rose called 'Lubra'. He did get from John 'Lady Edgeworth David' (same source as the Bacchus Marsh one) and 'Prudence'. I guess but don't know he also has 'Warrawee' from his brother, but the 'Warrawee' at Morwell comes from Golden Vale, like 'Lubra'. So for the first time in yonks there is one supplier with all the extant Fitzhardinges and of reasonably good provenance. Therefore Morwell is close to having a complete set, and if urging can make a difference they will soon have it.
Morwell also has the best collection of authentic Riethmullers in Australia. I got Stan to give them 'Kwinana' (so John to Stan to Morwell), and I gave them 'Snow Spray' (Renmark from Margaret Furness to me to Stan to Morwell). Once we can extract 'Lady Woodward' from John (John to Stan to Morwell) they will have the lot.
Finally — if anything is final in roses — one of Stan's seedlings of 'Lubra' is earmarked for Werribee so that, at last, their label can come true.
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Where does John fit in with the VERSION B above?
HelpMeFind works best when info on one rose is posted to that rose's page. I hope you don't mind, but I've cut and pasted your comments to each rose.
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Sorry you had to do all the pasting. But it's good if we have ALL the related information in one place too.
There is no evidence now that Versions A and B were any different. We only know that the Version A path leads to a dead end. As for version B, John Nieuwesteeg never had anything to do with it.
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Peter Cox says in "Australian Roses" that 'Lubra' "dislikes wet, humid conditions". This is easily explicated. Scores of tightly packed petals taking two weeks to open can easily rot on the stem in humid weather. Fitzhardinge's 'Lady Edgeworth David' is exactly the same; it's not unusual in autumn to see a candelabrum of 20 buds all fail to open. Fitzhardinge must have known this, since Warrawee in her day would often have had damp summers. But the trade off at other times is remarkable depth of texture and, at least for 'Lubra', scent. If the weather is damp, pick the roses for the house at the bud stage.
Anyone in Australia who would like to verify this can get budded rootstock from Kurinda Roses on 03 5623 6827.
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#1 of 18 posted
11 OCT 14 by
Kebun
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Spoke by phone to the folks at Kurinda this afternoon, Lubra will be available from July next year
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Dear Kebun, I hope Stan Nieuwesteeg coughs up Lubra much sooner than that. The Morwell Lubra is probably the only authentic plant left anywhere. We must get it replicated and into other collections like Werribee and Bacchus Marsh before it is too late. Ironically John Nieuwesteeg thinks it is a dull little rose. But it is a most elegant and stylish 1930s rose built on exactly the same lines as Lady Edgeworth David.
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#3 of 18 posted
11 OCT 14 by
Jane Z
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my plant many moons ago was such a poor doer that I never got the chance to form an opinion, positive or negative, before it turned up its toes. vaguely remember 1 scented bloom, but meh ...
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#4 of 18 posted
11 OCT 14 by
Kebun
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Totally in agreement with you, Eric.. beauty, after all, really is in the eye of the beholder. Personally I appreciate how pre-war roses like Lubra reflect the pre-war definition of how HT flowers should look like, with their simple and refined elegance compared to the blowsy, flamboyant shape of post-war HTs. Considering that Lubra is one of only three, surviving Fitzhardinge roses, it would be a travesty for this rose to be lost.
Just my two cents worth.. Peter
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Roughly actual size when you click on it.
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It may still be at Renmark (I mean an old plant, not the one I grew from a cutting): I'll check next time I visit. However I note that you thought my photos resembled yours. Many of the roses at the ABG were supplied by Ross Roses.
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Margaret, That would be most encouraging. We know that virtually all the Australian roses at Morwell came from Golden Vale, so a bit of triangulation would be informative. But let's say no one could prove the Morwell rose was Lubra. It would still be a very fine 1930s-style HT.
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Another comment; John N would never let a plant less than two years old out of his nursery, and I guess he brought Stan up to follow that protocol.
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I may regret this, but my curiosity is aroused. Apart from the buds, how does the bush itself handle the combination of heat and humidity? Is it naturally resistant to disease, or does it require constant spraying?
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Dear GMC, the Morwell bush today was five feet by three, carrying about seven big flowers, all mature, with a few black-spotty leaves near the base. Otherwise it looks very healthy. The bush dates back to the late nineties, so it is long lived, even in rotten soil (the Morwell garden was made out of tailings from road cuttings). You often see balling on the buds of Lady Edgeworth David at Bacchus Marsh. On Lubra, with very similar structure though with perhaps fewer petals, I have never seen buds or flowers balling in five years of visits.
Perhaps there's something special about the Morwell climate. We can't really compare because Lubra is now growing only there and in Renmark. Morwell has 25 inches of rain a year. Bacchus Marsh has 20. Fitzhardinge's Warrawee has monsoonal summers, cool winters and 40 inches a year.
You didn't ask me this, but I looked around for Oklahoma to see if Lubra's scent was as big. It is certainly as good.
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Thanks for the information. I hadn't heard of this rose before, and just read all the comments and references for it because it popped up in the recent posts listing today. It sounds like a fascinating but rather confusing thing, with varying reports on the behaviour of the flowers (balling or no balling), the scent (great or not much) and the vigour or otherwise of the bush itself, since you saw one go rampant in Melbourne, and the Morwell one seems fine, but other rose growers haven't been able to get the thing going at all.
I'm a bit intrigued, because it obviously likes some conditions, and is happy if it gets them (whatever they are) and has historical value too, not just a rare Australian-bred rose but as an example of a style which, while apparently very elegant, is now out of fashion.
And if the scent is as good as Oklahoma, that is very good indeed.
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Maybe someone saw Lubra go rampant in Melbourne, but it was not me. Fitzhardinge had an acre of the best, and best watered, soil in Sydney. The commonest complaint about her roses is that they are slow and mean growers. My experience of one plant is that Lubra is slow to flower but generous when it does. She had the time and money (gardeners !) to take a lot of trouble over her roses, and they respond to it. I hope to publish an article on this shortly.
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I assumed you had seen it, but I suppose you were referring to a report you had heard (Discussion id : 76-114):
"'Lubra' has been struggling to survive for years in the Victoria State Rose Garden. Suddenly the bush is a tall climber covered in new growth, leaves and fairly big flowers."
I found that amusing. Presumably it was languishing under the the best possible care (or so they thought) in the State Rose Garden. Then one day, for no apparent reason, the thing goes bonkers and decides it's party time.
If 'Lubra' just needs good soil and more water than usual, I could arrange that for an interesting specimen. If it needs an army of slaves constantly fussing over it, that's never going to happen.
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Dear GMC, I don't remember writing that about Lubra at Werribee, but I know what happened. Werribee thought it would be good, and a good play on the names, to plant Black Boy and Lubra together. It looked as if Lubra had taken off, but actually it had died of the competition while Black Boy took off.
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Just reading up some more, since intermittent downpours keep stopping me digging, and this rose is weird.
Ophelia is a a generally well-behaved and fairly durable sort of thing, as far as I can tell. Black Boy is well known to be a rampant monster and as tough as old boots (my mum's parents had one when she was a girl). Yet Lubra is supposedly rather frail, according to most modern reports.
On the other hand, most of the pre-1950 references (excluding catalogues which were trying to sell it) refer to Lubra as being vigorous in growth. Example from Australian Rose Annual, 1938:
"The plant is vigorous in growth, with healthy foliage, and produces freely long stemmed, richly fragrant blooms all through the season."
There is even this, from the sub-tropics (Queensland Garden Guide, 1950):
"Although the blooms of dark crimson are rather small, the plant is capable of producing these in masses and with very long stems. It is very fragrant and one of the best deep reds for a hot climate."
Then you have the Morwell example, which doesn't exactly seem frail either, and isn't being cosseted.
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Yes, yes and yes. Lubra at Morwell used to be four feet tall; now it's five. I learnt yesterday that it now receives six hours of dripped water a week in summer, plus infusions of Go-Go, which I take to mean Go-Go Juice. These are getting closer to the conditions at Warrawee in Fitzhardinge's day, which were monsoonal summers alternating with cold dry winters; 40 inches a year. Morwell's average is 28.
You hear of roses deteriorating in vigor. Lady Hillingdon is said to be one. Perhaps this applies to Lubra, but grower expectations have changed too—several times, away from the ideal that Lubra represents.
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#17 of 18 posted
19 JUN 15 by
Kebun
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Just got off the phone with Stan Nieuwesteeg, he has budded ALL the surviving Fitzhardinge roses (including Lubra) and they will be available potted by September (I made sure a specimen each of Lubra and Warrawee be put aside for me). Incidentally, Stan said his Lubra budstock was from the Morwell Lubra. And even your name, Eric, came up in conversation courtesy of Stan... in a good way of course lol!
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Dear Kebun,
I know you've been on the Fitzhardinge trail for a while. You deserve everything you've got. People all over the place are supposed to have Lubra, but the closer you get, the further away seems the reality. It's possible Stan has the only true Lubra left in his cuttings from Morwell.
I have Prudence from John and I'm desperate to see its first flower. It grew to ten feet in three months, huge canes.
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A newspaper reference implying Lubra may ball on the stem:
Get Your Roses Planted. (1952, May 11). The Sunday Herald (Sydney, NSW : 1949 - 1953), p. 8. Retrieved February 28, 2015, from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18506387: "Lubra is a lovely red if picked in the bud for inside decoration."
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