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'Oeillet sans pétales' rose Reviews & Comments
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this moss rose isn't a seedling at all of the lost centifolia 'Oeillet' bred by Louis Poilpré (not André Dupont), in 1798, in Le Mans. When people will stop mixing wrong data and be able to read properly ancient sources without inventing stories?
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#1 of 5 posted
26 JUN 22 by
jedmar
We cannot reconstruct how the parentage "seedling of Oeillet' came about. However, an 1849 reference states asepala (Oeillet) and several references link it to Dianthaeflora = resp. Rosa caryophyllata (see). In German asepala is described several times as "Nelkenmoosröschen", i.e. "small carnation moss rose", which indicates again 'Oeillet'.
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The 'Oeillet' fact came from a confusion written in the Manual of Roses by William Prince in 1846, a second hand specialist (and also plagiarist of Thomas Rivers) because all he did was to gather the notes left in 1842 by his father who knew the topic. in this reference firstly you can read:
‘Asepala, Sans petales, or Rosa muscosa asepala; a new variety, something like the Provence Dianthæflora, curious, sometimes very pretty.’ (PRINCE 1846 : 19).
Then further pages later : ‘Sans Sepales is a distinct variety, with incarnate flowers of medium size, tinged with pale rose on the edges.’ (Op. Cit.: 26).
Because the flower is small and also in reminiscence of this mention, Adolph Otto wrote in his 1858 monograph, page 148 : « Asepala (Œillet oder die nelkenmoosrose), Blumen weiss fleischfarben schattirt und zuweilen rosenfarben eingefasst; die ränder der Blumenblätter gekräufelt, klein und voll, ohne belchblätter; form kompakt, habitus ausrecht, wuchs mässig. » Adolph Otto, 1858 – Der Rosenzüchter, Erlangen: Berlag von Ferdinand Enke This is the most likely explanation for an imprecise or clumsy analogy with the carnation flower, not because of a direct parentage/lineage with the centifolia 'Oeillet' bred by Louis Poilpré.
PS/ I'm historian from the city of Le Mans, and i'm working on first hand local data and archives, that's why when i talk about some varieties bred from my area, it is in full knowledge.
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#3 of 5 posted
26 JUN 22 by
jedmar
Yes, Prince was a great plagiator - his text is a reformulation of Hibberd and Buist's books. At HMF we base our information on published documents. Have you written articles on this subject?
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Dear Jedmar, thank you for your comment. It is a good policy on HMF to rely on published references. That's why i will come back soon and once my research on the XIXth century rose breeders from Le Mans, will be printed (for next November). This ongoing work will bring up new datas even on some known roses.
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#5 of 5 posted
26 JUN 22 by
jedmar
Great! Looking forward to it. Meanwhile, our members can follow the comments.
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Initial post
14 APR 10 by
kev
the rose shown hers is that of a deep cerise pink not a light pink.either the description is wrong or the photo is incorrect.In this case, the photo is definately wrong.
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#1 of 3 posted
14 APR 10 by
jedmar
The photo shows a mislabeled plant in one of the large rosaries. I believe the original 'Sans sépales' is extinct.
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The original 'Asepala' alias 'Sans Sépales' isn't extinct at all! 'Asepala' is well and fine under its true name at L'Haÿ. In fact Jules Gravereaux added twice this variety in his collection:
First under the French name : 'Sans Sépales' (originally kept at L'Haÿ in the bed LXXV, B22), then mislabelled in the collections after him, during the 1990's and inexplicably by 'Brennus' (perhaps due to the extreme curators negligence at L'Haÿ).
Second under its Latin name 'Asepala' (bed LXXXI, B19), it came back indeed later through some exchanges with the USA during the late Gravereaux years.
The 'Sans Sépales' however has substituted 'Précoce' (Vibert, 1843) at L'Haÿ, as well other mosses (John Cranston, Rotrou, etc... due to heavy negligence). This problem can be also seen in the Loubert's collection. In my opinion, after having diving deeply in archives and old collections, this is more the original 'Précoce' who's gone forever...
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you're right, 'Sans Sépales' was mislabelled at L'Haÿ and was strangely replaced by the bengal 'Brennus' (Laffay, 1830). This mistake is still present at L'Haÿ and in the Loubert's collection.
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