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'Madame de Chalonge' rose Reviews & Comments
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For what it's worth, my Le Pactole has survived (thrived!) in my barely Z7a garden IN AN UNPROTECTED POT, for five years....in a west-facing, prevailing wind-exposed pot ghetto. The first year was an accident, as I missed bringing the two year old plant into the garage for the winter. The second year was "what the heck, let's see if it was a fluke". The next two years, we had some brutal February weather. It suffered some tip burn. This past year was weirdly warm, but for one short spell in November. And now, LeP is about to bloom, three weeks early. It is also one of the healthiest roses in my garden. This has become my favorite white/cream tea (calling it yellow is a stretch). I'm about to pot it up into a larger, more decorative pot (black plastic doesn't really match my garden scheme) so I can show this beauty off. It will never reach the proportions here that it does in warmer climates; I'm just glad it consents to bless me with its presence.
I would humbly suggest that this rose is hardy to at least Z6b, which is uncommon for a true tea.
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RogersRoses, which sells 'Le Pactole', states that this rose grows from 2.5 to 5 feet. That coincides with my own plant. I can find no source that claims this rose is a climbing tea. One old 19th century source even calls it a dwarf plant. Perhaps there is a climbing variety of 'Le Pactole', but, again, the few sources that mention this rose do not refer to it as such.
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#1 of 11 posted
26 JUL 09 by
 jedmar
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You are certainly right; there is no way for 'Le Pactole' to climb 6 meters. This is an error.
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Neither 6 meters, nor a climbing rose, but 'Le Pactole' does get large in California, and was reported as being kept to 9-10 feet with occasional pruning at the Sacramento Cemetery on the Antique Roses Forum- here is a link to a photo of 2 'LP' planted together in Sacramento (with 'Cécile Brunner' in front):
http://www.justourpictures.com/roses/lepactole_CB.html
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#3 of 11 posted
20 JUL 17 by
jedmar
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Yes, indeed!
I think 'Le Pactole' was dismissed as a contender for being "Yallum Park Cream" because it was thought to be too small.
I do see similarities, though it's hard to say if they might be the same. 'LP' seems to be variable color-wise... not just the flowers being more ivory in some gardens and pale yellow elsewhere, but also the foliage and canes (more purplish in some places, more green in others).
But I don't think it's too small... I'd expect 'LP' would get quite large in Oz with maturity.
Virginia
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Virginia, I will reply further in "Yallum Park Cream".
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1893 The Rose (Ellwanger)
p269. No. 539. Le Pactole dwf. or mod. T. 'Madame Pean'. From Lamarque x Yellow Tea. Very pale yellow, beautiful buds.
From the above reference, it would seem that 'Le Pactole' was introduced by Pean-Sylvain. Would anybody have access to a Pean-Sylvain catalogue for any description?
I feel that the original 'Le Pactole' might have been a small bush. See refs
1843 p338 - small bushes. This ref is for 'Madame de Chalonge' (?France)
1844 p97 - dwarf habit (Pennsylvania, U.S.)
1848 p154 - growth moderate (Waltham Cross, U.K.)
1864 p142 - less vigorous habit (London, U.K.)
1871 - [bloom] small (London, U.K.)
1880 p76 - medium-size [bloom]. This ref is for 'Madame de Chalonge' (Germany)
1898 p19 - low growing. (Cannes, France)
Does anybody know the provenance of the 'Le Pactole's in America? Do they descend from the Sierra Nevada foundling?
There have been so many 'Narcisse' and similar roses that I am quite confused. In trying to make sense of them, I list a few roses in chronological order:
<1826 Narcisse Laffay, China Bengale, or Tea.
<1831 Narcisse Unknown. Tea. Milk-white with flesh. [Refer Old Roses: The Master List 2007, p473]
<1836 Narcisse Unknown. Noisette. Yellowish white [Refer Old Roses: The Master List 2007, p473]
<1837 Le Pactole Miellez. Noisette or Tea.
1845 Narcisse Genest. Noisette.
1845 Narcisse Mansais. Noisette or Tea [listed with Enfant de Lyon and apparently similar to Le Pactole]
<1853 Narcisse Avoux & Crozy. Tea. [or Noisette?]
1854 Louise de Savoie Damaizin. Tea.
1858 Enfant de Lyon Avoux & Crozy. Tea [or Noisette?]
<1885 Marechal Beauregard. [not on HelpMeFind. refer Le Pactole 1893 ref]
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Not to be difficult, but I think it's quite possible for a Tea-Noisette to be dwarf in England, but grow to a substantial size in sunnier locales. This seems especially likely with 'Le Pactole' which- I've been told- is a slower grower than most Teas.
I seem to recall that 'Le Pactole' in the U.S. hails from a rose found by Fred Boutin in California, but I hope someone else can chime in to verify or correct my recollection.
It seems to me that if there were really that many different pale yellow Teas, Noisettes, and/or Tea-Noisettes called 'Narcisse', that catalogues would specify which is which. Since I have not seen that, my guess is that there really weren't seven different 'Narcisse' roses, just more confusion than usual about who bred/ introduced the one or two that did exist. Not much help there- sorry.
Virginia
PS Do you think 'Marechal Beauregard' might be a corruption of 'Maréchal Bugeaud', even though that wasn't a light yellow Tea?
http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.44525
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'Blush Noisette' grows less than 1 metre tall in my garden and two other gardens locally where I have planted it, otherwise it is healthy and flowers well.
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There are a couple of "small"s there from warmer countries. I've added the (correct, I hope) countries to my comment.
Yes. Fred found it. See the 2011 reference.
Thanks Virginia. All we can do is keep adding material whenever we find it. One day it might come clear.
Patricia
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#10 of 11 posted
31 JUL 17 by
jedmar
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No, I do not think that Beauregard is a corruption of Bugeaud. The "Gazette de France" of 1765 lists a series of high-ranking Military men of the Beauregard Family in the 17th/18th centuries, including several Field Marshalls (Maréchal de camp). In Wikipedia there is also one Pierre Raphaël Pauillot de Beauregard, who became Field Marshall in 1791.
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Yes, then it's a good possibility that there was a 'Géneral Beauregard' Tea- I'll look to see if I can find anything more.
I had just seen a reference to 'Maréchal Bugeaud', so he was on my mind. Both Teas, but the difference in color does make it seem likely that there were two roses.
Thanks,
Virginia
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