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'Colonel de Sansal' rose Reviews & Comments
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Van Houtte 1875 allots this variety to the 1875-1876 "rosiers Hybrides Remontants" (p. 442), and gives its parent as 'Baronne Prévost' ("Issu du Rosier Baronne Prévost") (p. 423).
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#1 of 1 posted
16 OCT 23 by
 jedmar
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Bonjour,
I am writing a book on the roses bred in Normandy mainly during the 19th century, and found a lot of new informations mainly from the numerous journals of the Norman horticultural societies.
I just would like to tell you that the real name of the rose 'Colonel de Sansal' is 'Rose Impératrice'. it was not bred by Jamain but by Armand Garçon in Rouen. The rose was put into commerce by Jamain.
Kindly yours.
Daniel
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Thank you so much Daniel. May we have a reference we can quote please.
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Dear Patricia,
It was a great pleasure to receive an answer from you. I knew some of your very detailed research on roses. I suppose it is thanks to you that we owe the rich bibliography (references) on a large number of roses added on Hmf. Congratulations for the precise and well referenced quotes!
I suppose you read French? If so, I will answer you in French about 'Colonel de Sansal'.
Best regards,
Daniel
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Thank you so much Daniel. Your answer makes it all worthwhile.
Not only me - we have a very small band of dedicated volunteers who also have worked to make this site so valuable. Yes I have added many references to HelpMeFind and have been doing so since about 2006 when I concentrated on the Australian-bred roses. Living far from other gardeners and nurseries it has been my way of contributing and has given me much pleasure in sharing what I have found. It used to be my dream that we would have a person in each country contributing their knowledge and references on the roses grown in their specific countries. Wouldn’t that be wonderful.
I am afraid I do not speak French and must go to G. Translate when I need to. It is pretty good, but plain English that a child can understand ensures no possible error on my part.
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Bonjour Patricia,
Toutes mes excuses à vous répondre si tard.
J'utilise le traducteur Google ...
You certainly know that a famous Bourbon rose presented at an exhibition in London in 1882 under the name of 'Madame Isaac Pereire' obtained by Margottin fils (Jules) caused a scandal. This rose had been purchased by Jules Magottin from his real breeder Armand Garçon, a gardening worker in Rouen (Normandy), who had named it 'Le Bienheureux de La Salle'. Margottin fils changed the name and attributed it to himself! As a result of this scandal, the name of the breeder was restored, but not the name of the rose. Garçon created a lot of roses, he did not want to multiply them, and sell them. Some buyers have been honest in keeping the name of the breeder and of the rose, others not. The Rouen Horticultural Society, which supported Garçon, was able to identify only some of the roses sold by Garçon (several tens in fact) with changed names. This is the case of the rose 'Baron Ernest Leroy' bought by Jamain from Garçon which was marketed under the name 'Colonel de Sansal'. I was able to find her under this name in Sangerhausen and attributed to Jamain. Likewise 'Rose Impératrice' raised by Garçon became 'Mme Hippolyte Jamain' but remained attributed to Garçon, etc.
Ref.: Fumierre L . Les Roses... Les roses rouennaises. (reprint ?). Société centrale d’horticulture de la Seine-Inférieure. Impr. Cagniard. Rouen. 1910.
Fumierre was vice-président of the society.
Amicalement,
Daniel
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#4 of 15 posted
2 OCT 19 by
jedmar
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Look forward to your new book! I am sure it will be as superb as your "Le Livre des Roses".
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Daniel,
May I check please. Shall I merge these two:
'Baron Ernest Leroy' 1875 (and add the breeder as Armand Garcon 1874)
‘Colonel de Sansal’ 1874 (and add Jamain as the introducer under this name)
I am confused about ‘Rose Imperatrice’. You say in your first comment:
“I just would like to tell you that the real name of the rose 'Colonel de Sansal' is 'Rose Impératrice'.”
Colonel de Sansal’ 1874 is carmine pink.
And then in your comment no 5
“Likewise 'Rose Impératrice' raised by Garçon became 'Mme Hippolyte Jamain' but remained attributed to Garçon, etc.”
Mme Hippolyte Jamain 1871 is white - or pink-white.
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Patricia,
1 - Yes, 'Colonel de Sansal' is in fact 'Baron Ernest Leroy'. Breeder Garçon, introducer Jamain. Carmine pink.
2- Sorry, I made a mistake: 'Mme Hippolyte Jamain' is in fact 'Rose Impératrice', not 'Colonel de Sansal'! Breeder Garçon, introducer Jamain. White or pink-white. 1871.
Currently on HMF 'Madame Hippolyte Jamain' is correctly described "white or white blend", but the picture shows a red rose! It is indeed, in L'Hay as in Sangerhausen, the color of the rose labeled 'Madame Hippolyte Jamain'. It will be remembered that the Sangerhausen rose garden was created a few years after that of L'Hay and that many cuttings were given by L'Hay to Sangerhausen. We can therefore find the same mistakes in the two rose gardens. Can you delete this photo?
Amicalement,
Daniel
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#9 of 15 posted
18 NOV 19 by
jedmar
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Yes, the picture of Amiroses from L'Hay probably shows 'Hippolyte Jamain'. I had made a comment on this in 2007. It seems that 'Mme Hippolyte Jamain' in L'Haÿ is mislabeled. However, instead of deleting the photos, we would prefer to point out incorrect information, as in this case. MHJ is not listed in Sangerhausen, only HJ.
Patricia, we will need some written sources for the two synonyms, otherwise the comments of Daniel can be added as a note.
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Thank you Jedmar. I am grateful to leave this one up to you.
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#11 of 15 posted
19 NOV 19 by
jedmar
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Notes added. Daniel, do you have the relevant quotations from Fumierre's "Les Roses"?
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Bonjour Patricia,
I am looking for your bibliographic research on roses.
For example, some years ago, I downloaded the one on Chênedollé (3 pages with quotes and references). You did one on Belle Amour. Where can I see your remarkable work? I can't find them on Hmf.
I wish you happy end of year holidays
PS: I liked your statement that I share "a gardener does not sit on a bench in his garden."
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Hello Daniel,
I may have contributed a file or two to Chez Vibert years ago - perhaps that was where you saw them? But they were not remarkable. They were just references typed up from various catalogues and books in chronological order, exactly the same as HelpMeFind does (which is remarkable). I am quite sure I have shared on HelpMeFind everything I found. See the references for ‘Belle Amour’.
On the other hand, you may be talking about some columns I did for my tiny town’s local newspaper. If so, see HelpMeFind’s RESOURCES / PUBLICATIONS / type in Karri Pigeon, and there they are. Thank you for your good wishes - i wish you in return safety and contentment.
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Patricia,
About 20 years ago I received buds from Sangerhausen and from l'Hay both supposed to be the white 'Mme Hippolyte Jamain', they were infact red.
Here are excerpts from a brochure of the Société centrale d'horticulture de Seine-Inférieure (now Seine-Maritime), written by its vice-president Louis Fumierre :
"De 1868 à 1878, Garçon avait vendu la propriété de 25 variétés à MM. J. Margottin et H. Jamain, ne se réservant que la parternité, gloire stérile du producteur....
Ce qui devait arriver arriva : ... 'Baron Ernest Leroy', qui lui valut une médaille du département
[de Seine-Inférieure], en 1866, une fois cédé, fut mis au commerce sous le nom de 'Colonel de Sansal' ; la 'Rose Impératrice' devint 'Madame H. Jamain' ; la superbe Rose Ile-Bourbon, 'Le Bienheureux de La Salle' fut lancée dans le commerce sous le nom de 'Madame Isaac Pereire' ; enfin fâcheusement, d'autres variétés de Garçon figurent dans les catalogues avec un autre nom que le sien comme obtenteur."
Fumierre Louis. LES ROSES. Roses d'autrefois et roses d'aujourd'hui. Les roses rouennaises. Trop de nouveautés. Synonymie des roses. Odeur des roses. Impr. Cagniard. Rouen. 1910.
Amicalement,
Daniel
...
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#13 of 15 posted
21 NOV 19 by
jedmar
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Merci, Daniel! One thing is clear: Jamain could not have introduced 'Rose Impératrice' under its original name, as Emperor Napoléon III, became a prisoner of the Prussians at the Battle of Sedan in September 1, 1870; the 3rd Republic was proclaimed on September 4 and Empress Eugénie fled France on September 5, 1870. Politically it would have been suicide to keep the origonal name.
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