I just came across and uploaded a photo from 1932 of 'Barcelona' which has convinced me beyond doubt that the rose in commerce as 'Francis Dubreuil' isn't 'Barcelona' and that the "David Martin's No 41" is. The prior photos from the Pfitzer catalogues show it with a more cupped form but the new Kordes photo shows a more classic HT shape which I think rules out "Francis Dubreuil (in commerce as) altogether, in my humble opinion.
Back around the 1990s when wholesalers discovered a bit of a market for OGRs, there were some spectacular mislabelings in the American nursery trade. I remember a repeat blooming Queen of Sweden (the alba) which was probably Jacques Cartier. Also the confusion between Celsiana, the Damask, and Celestial, the alba. I expect the Barcelona/ FD mixup may have been confined to North America. I have not grown either, but I gather from comments of warm state gardeners that the mixup was a real thing.
What is the provenance of the Barcelona at The Huntington? It is said by multiple people to be extremely fragrant. One of them was a staff member (Judy something I think) who makes rose desserts from some varieties with the best fragrance for that purpose, and Huntington's Barcelona was one. But since there are such questions with the identify of Francis Dubreuil, how certain is it that The Huntington has the real Barcelona???? Did they get it from Sangerhausen? Because if so, this from the reference section presents a problem:
"Rosenlexikon Book (1936) Page(s) 52.
Barcelona (HT) Kordes 1932; (Sensation X Templar) X L. Charlemont; deep crimson, shaded velvety blackish red, very large, double, fine form, cupped, lasting, fragrance 6/10, floriferous, blooms continuosly with interruptions, elongated buds, long stems, upright, growth 7/10, 70cm. Sangerhausen"
Fragrance is only 6/10? What people are growing in the US now as Barcelona is a very, very fragrant rose. So is it really Barcelona? Did Sangerhausen evaluate the correct rose, or not, per above? Or maybe The Huntington got their plant direct from Kordes????
Tessies, Kim responded your question on the sprawling Francis Dubreuil thread: Just scroll to the end :-) http://www.houzz.com/discussions/1705818#14914820
Yes, I've looked at both the notes and the Houzz thread. No provenance stated. Kim indicates he didn't check the records at the huntington, so he doesn't know the details on this rose. Although he mentioned a number of possible sources, we don't know from which one the Huntington acquired theirs. There are so many plants in commerce incorrectly identified as well as named varieties where there are multiple different roses being sold with the same name. And so much effort seems to be going into tracking down the real Francis Dubreuil, it seems reasonable to do a little verifying on Barcelona too.
Kim is quite correct in what he says about Francis Dubrueil and Barcelona. Francis has the much STR get scent of the two.It is as he says much like Oklaholma in style except that it is much darker bel g the shade of very dark amaranth and Black mulberry with blackberry overtones. Towards to middle and lower parts of the petals it lightens and becomes crimson scarlet and purple/pink.Even after 100 years it rarely exceeds more than a metre in height being very erect rather than loose and spreading. Barcelona is quite different for instance it is a shiny red with out being velvety like Francis D. IT IS ALSO more cupped once it has expands.
I just came across and uploaded the image of 'Barcelona' from the Bobbink & Atkins 1936 catalogue. It shows more detail of the leaves than other images and also shows interesting prickles and stipules. The stipules appear to have a reddish central vein. This all might be helpful (or not) in identifying what's what with the US 'Barcelona' and Australian "David Martin's No.41". Here's a detail:
Thank you HubertG. I have my original own-root bush and now a Fortuneana-budded bush. I’ll take my iPad out into the garden and compare - but not today.
Apologies for the delay HubertG - I get there in the end. My ‘Barcelona’ has reddish new foliage with red center veins on the stipule. Older mature leaves stipule veins are green.
