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'Fedtschenkoana' rose Reviews & Comments
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Kew lists R. fedtschenkoana as a synonym of R. webbiana on their website
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#1 of 2 posted
5 OCT by
 jedmar
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Yes. but that seems to be considered controversial by other botanists. They are closely related. Flora of China states:
Rosa webbiana: Petals pinkish; flowers 3.5–5 cm in diam.; hip subglobose or ovoid, glabrous, rarely glandular punctate; leaflets abaxially often pubescent.
Rosa fedtschenkoana: Petals white; flowers 3–4 cm in diam.; hip oblong or ovoid, densely glandular- pubescent; leaflets glabrous.
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I have to say I'm a little confused about Fedtschenkoana being the pollen parent of the Damasks.
While I am in no way any kind of genetics expert, and indeed I am only just now starting to grasp some of the very basics, I do feel that in this instance things do not add up for me, no matter what way around I think of this - and this is why.
According to Hurst's septet theory (which I don't believe has been debunked, but please correct me if I'm wrong) and all the scientific (including genetic studies) discussions that I have found by all manner of people far more qualified than me, R. Moshata is described as an A septet diploid, R. Gallica as an A and C septet tetraploid, and R. Fedtschenkoana as a B and D septet tetraploid. These designations would fit with all the characteristics and traits of the three roses in question, so no problems there.
Now as I understand this, the initial cross between Moschata X Gallica would result in a triploid hybrid (fertile or otherwise, but that is not really relevant here). So far so reasonable. But- if this hybrid was then pollinated by Fedtschenkoana, surely the result would be something along the lines of an irregular A, B, C, D septet tetraploid - somewhat like the original seedling from Pernet Ducher's cross that subsequently led to Soleil d'Or. (Or even something like an A, A, B, C, D, pentaploid?) Yet nowhere have I seen this fact discussed, let alone explained.
Am I missing something, or does that not add up with the finding of all 4 of the oldest of the Damasks as A and C septet tetraploids? Where did the B and D go?!
Any thoughts? Much obliged in advance.
I've pinned this comment on the Quatre Saison page as well.
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#1 of 8 posted
6 JUL 21 by
jedmar
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I agree. See the paper "Tulips, Traders and Roses" (available on the web) where the findings of the Iwata et al. study are also questioned, although for other reasons. I would suggest that the origins of R. damascena need to be looked at again in a better-prepared scientific analysis.
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Hello again Jedmar, I had a feeling you might reply.
Thanks for the article - I've read it and it makes a lot more sense than Fedtschenkoana does to my mind. I've also heard someone pose the theory of whether the Albas are actually in the background of the Damasks, rather than the usual assumption that the Damasks helped create the Albas - and if an Alba happened to pollinate the Moschata X Gallica hybrid, that would create an A and C septet tetraploid, in theory.
As you quite rightly say, I think a lot more analysis will have to be done on the Damasks. I know some would say that I am unqualified to speak on such matters, but to this layman, Fedtschenkoana just doesn't seem to be the right answer to solve the puzzle to me.
Further to when I mentioned Soleil d'Or, look at Stanwell Perpetual for example - that rose shows a lot of influence from the pimpinellifolia parent, which would have had either B and C or B and D septets, very much like Fedtschenkoana with B and D - and yet that is a very different looking result than we have with something like Kazanlik or Quatre Saison. All the first generation hybrids with either Pimpinellifolia or Foetida as a parent that I have ever seen have had a much more pronounced similarity to them than the Damasks ever do to Fedtschenkoana (even allowing for the fact that I have never seen it in the flesh). And Hurst says that the B septet has a very strong tendency to make roses with flowers coming in singularly set flowers rather than in clusters, even when recessive - something that I would never say was the case with my extremely cluster-flowered Quatre Saison!
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#3 of 8 posted
7 JUL 21 by
Plazbo
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I don't think the claim is (mosh x gallica) x fedt = instant damask. More that it is their genetic origin and generations post that initial cross/es is where the Damask and Autumn Damask come into it.
Hurst septets are based on visual observation of phenotype, not genetic analysis of genotype so they work in some cases not in others. Some traits don't express when other traits are in play (eg wichuraiana foliage tends to over power most other foliage types in a cross, doesn't mean the genetics of the other parents foliage aren't there)
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Testing, testing, 1 2, 1 2 - it won't let me reply! Sorry folks. I'll keep trying.....
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Let's try again!.....
Thank you for chipping in.
Well I may have agreed with you, had it not been for the fact that that is the parentage that IS being stated as the direct parentage for many of the oldest of the Damask group, including on the pages for Quatre Saison and R. Damascena on this website. If it isn’t the case then it shouldn’t being be pushed as such, and it should be simply a note in the references. But I know what you are driving at.
Regarding the septets, thank you for that snippet about Wichuraiana foliage, I didn’t know that, and I have duly absorbed that info! (I think someone said that Rugosa foliage often disappears in certain crosses, only to reappear in later generations for no apparent reason)
There is a page on bulbnrose (I can't add the link), showing fig. 100 in which Dr Hurst shows the way in which the B septet continues to have an influence on producing singularly held flowers, even on roses where the B septet only makes up a small part of the overall rose.
Surely if Fedtschenkoana had been invloved even remotely recently in the ancestry of the Damaks group, the B and D septets would still be present and having this effect on them? But all the oldest of the Damasks are listed in every source I have ever seen as being A and C septets only (only Omar Khayyam have I seen listed as something else, and that was a pentaploid with an extra E septet). So the question remains, where have the B and D septets from Fedtschenkoana gone? ( please bear in mind that I have never seen or experienced Fedtschenkoana in the flesh, only through books and online, so please correct me if I am wrong regarding any specific traits of it)
Am I right in saying that septets are now able to be be scientifically proven through analysis rather than just theory? (again, please correct me if I am wrong on this point).
Having said all that (at great length, sorry!!) I do take your point. But I just think that it is open to some doubt, in my mind anyway. As the article that Jedmar provided says, the geographical aspect is a bit more difficult to explain too than at face value.
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Because of all the messing about because it wouldn't allow me to reply, I missed a point out!
I have heard it suggested that some septets 1. may be shed by roses over a long period of time (in theory), and 2. that they can be lost through certain directions of hybridisation (eg irregular pentaploids or hexaploids being used as pollen parents rather than as the seed parent) - but if that were the case, we would be looking at something rather different and removed from the [Moschata x Gallica] X Fedtschenkoana cross anyway.
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#7 of 8 posted
8 JUL 21 by
jedmar
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The claim of Iwata et al. was (moschata x gallica) x fedtschenkoana = R. damascena
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Olga Fedtchenko, 1845 – 1921
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Does anyone still have this rose, or have any cuttings, seedlings, or seeds they would like to trade from it? Quatre Saisons Blanc Mosseux is the closest thing I have to it, but I really want to get directly to the foliage fragrance and continuous bloom genes. I want to get apple scented eglanteria foliage to mix with mossy noble fir scent and add some primula incense scent to make a rose with really great foliage. I think that the scented leaf quality will be a play a big part in deterring insects and disease when they are all added together. Imagine moss, pine, apple, and incense! Yum. Beggeriana supposedly combines fragrant eglanteria type scent with remontancy.
Anyway, once again, does anyone have a sucker from this rose or some seeds they can spare? I can provide a lot of interesting things in response. :)
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Hi Jason, Fedtschenkoana is dormant (deciduous) now and it is raining (again!) so it will be a while before it's dry enough to wade out to where it sits in its pot to see what there may be as far as suckers. Fed. will bud but I've not had great success in rooting it. Some have callused and a very few have actually pushed a few roots, but suckers are definitely the best way to go. I like the whimsy in your mixing foliage scents idea, but I think you are likely to find if you do obtain scented foliage, it's likely to be something rather mundane like "pine" or other more common evergreen scent. They don't appear to carry far into successive generations in my experience.
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#2 of 5 posted
24 AUG 19 by
Plazbo
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"They don't appear to carry far into successive generations in my experience."
While I'm sure there's likely unlisted hybrids, the one thing I notice is the hybrids descending from your original crosses don't cross back to siblings/cousins/etc, things that are foliage scented themselves. Not surprising to see scented foliage decline each generation when each generation is likely losing some of the genes involved in foliage scent.
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Granted. I don't "back cross" or use siblings because there are other issues I don't wish to fix in the results. Room is limited so being able to pot and observe many incestuous offspring isn't something I can easily accomplish. Perhaps for someone with more years, acres and water, that may be something interesting and maybe even worthwhile to explore.
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#4 of 5 posted
26 AUG 19 by
Plazbo
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It's something I've started a journey on to (along with a few other traits I'm attempting to isolate into more friendly plants)....I'm not 100% sure a huge amount of space will be required, seedlings could be discarded fairly quickly in the second generation. In a Jim Sproul type set up (ie 2,000 to 4,000 seedlings in a 5' x 20' area) space while not completely ignored isn't insurmountable (I mean the average car size is 6' x 15', only 10 feet squared less).
We know Blue For You x Fedt works somewhat reliably and Blue For You isn't an awful plant, breed enough of those as comfortable, check seedling (F1) pollen under microscope for consistent size to narrow down probable tetraploid seedlings. Cross those seedlings (F1) with each other/self extensively. From those crossings (F2) select the approx 1 in 32 juvenile bloomers (so in that 5x20 area approx 62 to 124 roses) and cross fingers that genetic recombination has been favourable and produced something that has mostly Fedt like foliage. If not either take the most Fedt like seedling/s and cross back to Fedt and repeat the process or cross back to the better F1/s (still half Fedt after all) for an approx 1 in 6 juvenile repeat (so approx 333 to 666 roses in that 5x20 space) and selecting for most Fedt like foliage....which should see at least incremental improvement if not something that's fairly close Fedt like in foliage. Granted that's theoretical so mileage may vary, check back in a few years :D
As you point out the Fedt foliage traits decline/disappear rather quickly when straying too far from Fedt so maintaining it is likely going to require fairly closely related breeding. It'd be more an attempt to introgress genes and traits from moderns into Fedt rather than Fedt traits into the modern rose genome.
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Go for it! I hope you have good success with it. Enjoy!
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