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'Rosa pissartii Carr. Synonym' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 105-102
most recent 3 APR 18 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 27 AUG 17 by Michael Garhart
Isn't there another Nastrana listing? But different roses, with similar or same "species" name?? Confused.
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Reply #1 of 4 posted 27 AUG 17 by jedmar
Yes, I know it is confusing, but 'Nastarana' in commerce is not the same as the rose which Christ called var. nastarana (=R. pissardii). See the note on this listing.
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Reply #2 of 4 posted 2 APR 18 by CybeRose
Jedmar,
And it gets worse. Pissard stated that the Rosa pissardii was native to Guiland. Recht is in Guiland.

A Collection of Late Voyages and Travels, by Robert Heron (1797)
"Guiland, bordering on the Caspian Sea, would be a very agreeable country, if the unwholesome waters stagnating in its vallies did not occasion frequent epidemic distempers among its inhabitants. They cultivate rice with successful industry; and this grain constitutes almost their sole nourishment. Adiat Khan is the present ruler of Guiland. He resides at Recht, a town considerably populous, the environs of which abound in mulberry trees, and afford the finest silk in Persia."

Which brings us to the 'Rose de Resht'. Miss Nancy Lindsay claimed to have brought back from Iran: "N.L. 849. Happened on it in an old Persian garden in ancient Resht, tribute of the tea caravans plodding Persia-wards from China over the Central Asian steppes; it is a sturdy, yard high bush of glazed lizard-green, perpetually emblazoned with full camellia flowers of pigeon's blood ruby, irised with royal-purple, haloed with dragon sepals like the painted blooms on oriental faience."

This is even more distinct from Pissard's rose than the little RICA "Nastarana".
Karl
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Reply #3 of 4 posted 3 APR 18 by jedmar
I think she is speaking about 'Rose de Rescht', a purple-red Portland rose, she claimed she found in Rescht. Her language is clearly not a botanist's. Was she trying to set herself apart from her mother Norah Lindsay, a garden designer famous in her time?
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Reply #4 of 4 posted 3 APR 18 by CybeRose
Jedmar,
Dr. Christ (1887) previously described "Nastarana" = "Rose de Rescht", but his was apparently a climber (20 feet) with solitary, small, double, red flowers. I think Miss Lindsay confused her Portland with Christ's rose.

Curiously, Christ cited the 'Manetti' (allegedly Rosa moschata x sempervirens) that Haussknecht collected in Greece, which bore dense flat corymbs of rose-red (rosenroth) flowers.
Karl
===========
Rosae Orientalis, pp. 31-32 (1887)
Hermann Christ
Rosa moschata ...
ß. Nastarana. — Differt foliolis minoribus densissime et acute serratis glaucis glabris, petiolis parum pubescentibus eminentius glandulosis, turionibus hornotinis ex axillis foliorum flores solitarios creberrimos emittentibus.

Hab. in Persiae prov. Khorassan inter Meschhed et Herat (Bge.) et in hortis culta ad Kirmanschah Persiae occid., arbor 20’ alta, Persis Nastaran dicta (sec. Haussk.) et ad Bebehan Persiae austr. (Haussk., f. eadem, sed laevissima, foliolis majoribus minusque serratis, flore minuto purpureo pleno) incolis Gul e Reschti (Rose de Rescht) dicta.

Obs. Haussknecht a. 1885 ex horto Atheniensi hybridam insignem, verosimiliter R. moschato X sempervirentem retulit.
============
Symbolae ad floram graecam: Aufzählung der im Sommer 1885 in Griechenland gesammelten Pflanzen. p. 100 (1893)
(List of plants collected in Greece in the summer of 1885.)
Carl Haussknecht

R. moschata x sempervirens Chr. in Suppl. fl. or. 230, R. Manetti Hort. sec. Crépin in hortis Athen. culta. — Bildet lange ruthenförmige Zweige, die reichlich mit dichten flachen Corymben besetzt sind; Blüthen rosenroth, auf langen reichdrüsigen Stielen; Scheinfrüchte fast kugelig, wenig drüsig; Kelchzipfel lang zugespitzt, abstehend, später zurückgeschlagen, meist einfach, nur einzeln mit Seitenzipfeln; Blättchen kurz und einfach gezähnt, kahl.
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Discussion id : 109-645
most recent 2 APR 18 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 27 MAR 18 by CybeRose
I checked with IPNI.org. The footnote (below) included in a description of Prunus pissardi validly corrects the spelling. In other words, Rosa pissardi is the valid name for this rose.

Revue Horticole, 16 Mai 1881 pp. 190-191
(2) Par suite d’une erreur typographique on a, en parlant d’un Rosier asiatique que nous avons dédié à M. Pissard, écrit Pissarti; c’est Pissardi qu’il fallait écrire. (Voir Revue horticole, 1880, p. 314.)
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Reply #1 of 10 posted 28 MAR 18 by Jay-Jay
Thank You, that looks clear to me now.
Will someone change the name on HMF?
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Reply #2 of 10 posted 28 MAR 18 by CybeRose
Jay-Jay,
And thank you for pushing me to look further than a single publication.
Karl
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Reply #3 of 10 posted 28 MAR 18 by Jay-Jay
You put a lot of effort and digging into getting this result.
Thank You for Your continuous support and most appreciated work for HMF... Especially the gold-mining to, or diving up those pearls of references.
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Reply #4 of 10 posted 31 MAR 18 by jedmar
We need to keep both spellings to enable the search function. Cybe Rose is correct that the first mention by Carrière was as Rosa pissarti (note: one i, where today we spell with two ii's), based on the name of the gardener being Pissart. Now apparently he was a Pissard, which makes Rosa pissardii the botanically correct spelling. IOPI lists both spellings, with Rosa pissartii being a synonym of Rosa pissardii.
Pissart and Pissard as surnames are both found in France, so the confusion of Carrière is understandable. But this gentleman seems to have been Ernest François Pissard.
The main issue I believe is not the spelling of the name, but which rose we are talking about. Studying the references, there seems to be a great confusion between a single rose which has solitary blooms located spirally around the stalk and another with typical moschata-type clusters, but semi-double. Both of these seems to have been sent by Pissard, the former as a living (or dried?) plant to Carrière and the latter as seeds to Godefroy. Godefroy thought he received seeds of Rosa pissardi and it was the same as Carrière's. They might well have been these seeds, but clearly from a hybridized pollination.
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Reply #5 of 10 posted 31 MAR 18 by Jay-Jay
I already wondered about those differences. And one of the roses looks a bit like Musquée sans Soucis.
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Reply #6 of 10 posted 31 MAR 18 by CybeRose
Carrière named the latter variety Rosa Godefroyae, though it is very doubtful as a species.

If this is the same plant currently distributed as 'Nastarana', it looks like it could be a non-climbing derivative of 'Champneys' Pink Cluster' or a similar cross.

Also, 'Nastarana' x self gave 'Elizabeth Navarro', which is even more Musk-like in its flowers, but still China-like in its habit.

One more thing, has Rosa pissartii been seen alive, in gardens or in the wild, since the 1880s? The picture in Revue Horticole Fig.63 (1880) seems to show a joint between the pedicel and a short stem. This same feature is seen on some of the large-flowered Tea-Noisettes.
Karl
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Reply #7 of 10 posted 31 MAR 18 by jedmar
Ivan Louette shows a specimen from the Kew Herbarium found in Iran in 1963 (see Photos).
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Reply #8 of 10 posted 2 APR 18 by CybeRose
Jedmar,
Thanks. I had missed that.

Also, I found today that I had misread the Revue Horticole article. In fact, the original Rosa pissardii did bloom over a very long season, even during the heat of summer.

Pissard's note to Carrière should read:

Cher monsieur Carrière, 

La magnifique espèce dont je vous ai envoyé des échantillons en fleurs et en fruits est originaire du Guiland, localité voisine de la mer Caspienne, et dont elle a été importée il y a déjà longtemps, pour orner les jardins de Téhéran, ce à quoi, du reste, elle est très-propre. Elle y pousse et fleurit très-bien, quoique la chaleur soit extrême pendant six mois, et qu’elle soit plantée dans un sol sec et pierreux, pas ou peu arrosé, et que l’hiver le thermomètre s’abaisse jusqu’à 15 degrés au-dessous de zéro. La plante devient admirable par son port élevé et ses innombrables et grandes fleurs d’un blanc pur, qui donnent à l’ensemble l’aspect d’une masse de neige. Pendant les trois ou quatre mois de grande sécheresse, la floraison continue, mais est alors beaucoup moindre ; mais aussi, une fois l’automne arrivé, qu’il tombe de la pluie et que la température devient plus fraîche, alors les rameaux vigoureux, qui ont atteint jusqu’à 2-3 mètres de longueur, se couvrent de fleurs, qui forment des grappes de 20-25 centimètres de longueur. C’est admirable.

Cette espèce vient très-grande. Il y a, dans le jardin où est placée mon habitation, un spécimen des plus remarquables, qui n’a pas moins de 5 à 6 mètres de hauteur, et dont l’ensemble forme une sorte de parasol de 15 mètres d’envergure. La tige, du sol aux premières branches, mesure 2 mètres; sa circonférence est de 55 centimètres. Les sols pierreux paraissent lui convenir; elle demande à être isolée et plantée au midi. Placée sur une pelouse, cette espèce produirait un effet splendide.

Quoique la plante donne facilement et même abondamment des fruits, je n’ai jamais trouvé de bonnes graines. Je suis même disposé à croire qu’il en est ainsi partout ici, car je n’ai jamais vu de sujet provenant de semis, et les indigènes la multiplient par marcottes. 

Veuillez, etc. Pissart.

Dear Mr. Carrière,
The beautiful species of which I sent you samples in flowers and fruits is from Guiland, a locality of the Caspian Sea, from which it was imported long ago, to decorate the gardens of Teheran, to which, besides, she is very clean. It grows and flowers very well, although the heat is extreme for six months, and it is planted in dry and stony soil, with little or no water, and in winter the thermometer drops to 15 degrees below zero. The plant becomes admirable for its high habit and its countless and large pure white flowers, which give the whole the appearance of a mass of snow. During the three or four months of great drought, the flowering continues, but is then much less; but also, once autumn arrives, rain falls and the temperature gets cooler, then the vigorous twigs, which are up to 2-3 meters long, are covered with flowers, which form clusters of 20-25 centimeters in length. It is admirable.

This species comes very big. There is, in the garden where my house is placed, a most remarkable specimen, which is not less than 5 to 6 meters high, and which together form a kind of parasol of 15 meters wingspan. The stem, from the ground to the first branches, measures 2 meters; its circumference is 55 centimeters. Stony soils seem to suit him; she asks to be isolated and planted at noon. Placed on a lawn, this species would produce a splendid effect.

Although the plant gives easily and even abundantly fruit, I have never found good seeds. I am even inclined to believe that it is so everywhere here, for I have never seen a subject from sowing, and the natives multiply it by layers.
Please, etc. Pissart.

I'm not clear on "au midi." Google translate gives "at noon", which make no sense. Perhaps it means in the middle of the garden.

Karl
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Reply #9 of 10 posted 2 APR 18 by Jay-Jay
Au midi might be south-facing.
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Reply #10 of 10 posted 2 APR 18 by Margaret Furness
Mr Quest-Ritson points out that more than one cultivar is in commerce as Nastarana. The one in commerce in Australia is the same as the one pictured in his Encyclopedia, and looks like some of the photos of the Double Musk rose. I don't like it because the central petaloids go brown quickly.
The one photographed in NZ looks different.
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Discussion id : 84-802
most recent 19 MAR 18 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 9 MAY 15 by Jay-Jay
Why oh why is this Rose called Pissarti and not Pissardii after the discoverer Pissard, like I believe it should have? Like the Purple Leaf Plum Prunus cerasifera 'Pissardii'.
In some of the References on HMF it is called Rosa Pissardii!
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Reply #1 of 4 posted 18 MAR 18 by CybeRose
Jay-Jay,
The first publication of the plant and its name included a note from Pissart. Even if it was a misprint, there is nothing to be done because the name of the rose was published at that time as Rosa pissarti.

Revue Horticole, pp. 314-316 (1880)
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/197171#page/352/mode/1up

Voici ce qu’il nous écrivait sur cette plante le 15 août 1879:
Cher monsieur Carrière, 
La magnifique espèce dont je vous ai envoyé des échantillons en fleurs et en fruits est originaire du Guiland, localité voisine de la mer Caspienne, et dont elle a été importée il y a déjà longtemps, pour orner les jardins de Téhéran, ce à quoi, du reste, elle est très-propre. Elle y pousse et fleurit très-bien, quoique la chaleur soit extrême pendant six mois, et qu’elle soit plantée dans un sol sec et pierreux, pas ou peu arrosé, et que l’hiver le thermomètre s’abaisse jusqu’à 15 degrés au-dessous de zéro. La plante devient admirable par son port élevé et ses inconvenir; elle demande à être isolée et plantée au midi. Placée sur une pelouse, cette espèce produirait un effet splendide.
Quoique la plante donne facilement et même abondamment des fruits, je n’ai jamais trouvé de bonnes graines. Je suis même disposé à croire qu’il en est ainsi partout ici, car je n’ai jamais vu de sujet provenant de semis, et les indigènes la multiplient par marcottes. 
Veuillez, etc. Pissart.
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Reply #2 of 4 posted 18 MAR 18 by Jay-Jay
I found this from the University of Wageningen ( http://edepot.wur.nl/299292 ) : Page 61-63
De Botanische Nomenclatuur behoort niet kakistocratisch, zelfs niet democratisch (dat beteekent in dit geval: gedeeltelijk kakis-tocratisch) doch aristocratisch te zijn. Verstand en goede smaak
behooren te overwegen. Scientia amabilis! Nomen est omen, De namen weerspiegelen de botanici.
Nr. 196.
Prunus Pissardii of Pissartii
Celastrus orbiculata en articulata.
Orthographische kwesties, REHDER in Amerika, VOSS in Duitschland, schrijven, tegen de
gewoonte, Prunus Pissartii.
De soort werd door CARRIÈRE in Revue Horticole van 1881 bekend gemaakt met den naam
P. Pissardi; CARRIÈRE deelt er tevens in een noot mede, dat in den vorigen jaargang een nieuwe rozensoort bij vergissing Rosa Pissarti genoemd werd, doordat hij in de meening verkeerde, dat de naam der betreffende persoon PISSART was, terwijl het PISSARD bleek te zijn; dus moest de naam Rosa Pissardi worden.
Derhalve had REHDER, die principieel en volgens art. 57 der Internationale Regels de namen zoo houdt als ze oorspronkelijk gepubliceerd zijn, Prunus Pissardi en Rosa Pissarti moeten schrijven in zijn „Manual", doch hij schrijft Prunus cerasifera var. Pissartii BAILEY 1)
en Rosa moschata (syn. R Pissardii CARR.).
Derhalve volgt hij zijn eigen principe hier niet, noch geeft hij een goede correctie.
....................
Wanneer men daarentegen de namen schrijft zooals zij behooren geschreven te worden in overeenstemming met de namen, waarvan zij zijn afgeleid, met de regels van het latijn en het
grieksch en met de internationale Regels en Aanbevelingen der Nomenclatuur (eenigszins geëmendeerd), dan hebben we vasten bodem onder de voeten en wordt éénheid op dit gebied
bereikt.
1)
Dan moeten wij schrijven (So we have to write:)
Prunus Pissardii
en
Rosa Pissardii.
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Reply #3 of 4 posted 19 MAR 18 by CybeRose
Jay-Jay,
Formal nomenclature is sometimes frustrating because of the "first published" rule. However, having waded through the many arbitrary name changes before the modern rules were established, I'm willing to accept the loss of Brontosaurus in favor of Apatosaurus. Oops! I just checked for the spelling of these names and learned that Brontosaurus is back.

Well, then ... I was annoyed when Franklinia alatamana was renamed Gordonia. But Franklinia came back, too.

Orthography differences are difficult enough when languages share an alphabet. Eschscholtzia californica is an imposing name for the little golden poppy, and is absurd because the "schsch" represents a single Cyrillic character. But it was published that way.

Even worse examples can be mentioned, such as Belamcanda chinensis being renamed Iris domestica. This happened because the first publication had an image of a Belamcanda blossom next to an orchid stem.

Sometimes I learned that a name had been changed just as I finally became confident in pronouncing the old one.

Karl
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Reply #4 of 4 posted 19 MAR 18 by Jay-Jay
Hi Karl,
For the record: I was just adding some info and not doubting Your input.
Thanks heaven, that the Emily Brontosaurus has it's name back again. I like it spines that look like those of Polka... or is it the other way round?
Chips, I'm mistaken too, they look like the spines on the Stegosaurus
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Discussion id : 109-383
most recent 18 MAR 18 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 18 MAR 18 by CybeRose
Bulletin of Miscellaneous Information: Additional series, Volume 4, page 351 (1900)
List of Published Names of Plants Introduced to Cultivation 1876-1896.
Rosa Pissardi (R. H. 1880, 314. f. 62, 63.) H. 15-18 ft. high, with l, and fl. like those of the Dog-Rose. Caspian Sea.
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