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"Estelle rose Reviews & Comments
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Johno, In adding the references from the Brooks & Son 1938 catalogue you kindly sent to me, I noticed them referring to Talisman in their reference for ‘Federico Casas’. Have you considered this rose for “Estelle”?
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#1 of 1 posted
22 APR 23 by
 Johno
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I have looked at all the photos of FC and inclined to think not although they both have similar pernetiana colouring.
A missing Talisman sport was reported to HMF from the Brooks catalogue. It would not surprise me that as Talisman produced so many sports (>30), the Estelle may have been just another one produced locally.
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In my research I have across a McGredy rose named Estelle. It was first exhibited in 1916 in London and described as similar to Irish Glory but deeper in color. National Rose Show, The Gardener's Chronicle, Vol LX, July 22, 1916, 46.
So far, I have discovered no other references.
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#1 of 5 posted
21 FEB 22 by
Johno
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Many thanks SBR, much appreciated. This Estelle (McGredy, pre 1916) is not listed on HMF.
Have looked up the reference and for the record the exact quote is: ‘Estelle, shown by Mr McGredy is another flower of the Irish Glory type, but deeper in colouring.’ Is the reference to ‘Irish Glory type’ referring to bloom colour, petal count or its pernetiana breeding? The next sentence: ‘The most noticeable single flower, however, shown by Mr McGredy was Isobel, which secured a Gold Medal’ seems to indicate that Estelle is a single rose, but we can’t be sure without further research.
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Thanks Stephen (and Johno).
On the basis of that one reference, I have added the rose. I have looked at the McGredy advertisements in ‘The Rose Annual’ for 1914,15, 16 and 1917, in case I missed anything when Indexing the Annuals. No mention of ‘Estelle’.
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#3 of 5 posted
22 FEB 22 by
Johno
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Thanks Patricia.
Establishing that the McGredy rose is a semi double rather than a single would bring us closer to a link with the ‘found’ rose.
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Thanks for your expertise. Estelle caught my attention because it is mentioned in the context of discussion of a number of "single-flowered" varieties exhibited at a London show. The reference to Irish Glory leads me to believe it was at least lightly petaled.
Stephen
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#5 of 5 posted
23 FEB 22 by
Johno
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Out of interest in looking at the rarity of non inclusion on HMF I have gone back to the article and checked on the roses mentioned in the show. There are 8 (9) roses not listed on HMF (around 20 percent). I am not suggesting they be added as there is little point without a picture or additional details, but it does show there are probably many roses in only 100 years which are not listed. HMF has enough issue in just keeping up with new releases. Thanks again Patricia.
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Initial post
20 JAN 22 by
Johno
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“Estelle” was growing in the family garden since being planted around 1940. I had come to the conclusion that it was probably a Talisman sport due to the similarities in its colour range. Gaining access to Talisman’s lineage showed that while over thirty sports are listed, “Estelle” was not one of them. The issue is where does “Estelle” fit in and members’ comments are welcome.
What are the observed differences between the two so far? “Estelle” growth exceeds 1.25 metres compared with Talisman’s listing of 0.9 metres in HMF. “Estelle” does not develop the scarlet colouring as show in the photographs for Talisman from R. Pauley, Dad’s Roses, and Jacekk. I would describe the colour of “Estelle” as a changing blend of orange, yellow and pinks.
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It is not familiar to me Johno but others may know it. I note that one of your February 6, 2011 photos shows a prickly (rather than smooth) pedicel. Do you have any photos of the prickles side-on? And perhaps a photo of a bare winter bush before pruning? Sometimes these tiny details will guide one further. Do you feel it is a hybrid tea or a floribunda? The February 6, 2011 photo shows single flowering, but the Oct 10, 2018 photo shows clusters
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#2 of 3 posted
23 JAN 22 by
Johno
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Additional photos uploaded. The uploaded photo was the only bloom on the bush and is atypical - petals are small, colour and petal count higher than what I would have expected. I have always assumed it was a hybrid tea - erect upright bush with typical pointed centre bloom. It tends to produce singles or up to 3. When it produces clusters they tend to be at the beginning of the season during a growth spurt. Will endeavour to remember to photograph the bush in winter.
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A superb prickle photo Johno.
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