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Nastarana 
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The statement in the Description section that it is a seedling of 'Triomphe du Luxembourg' is a misunderstanding of the 1836 Annales de Flore quote that it and two other roses are "children of the Luxembourg." The quote means that the three roses were raised (by Hardy) at the Luxembourg Palace gardens, not that they are seedlings from 'Triomphe du Luxembourg'.
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The HMF entry has this rose being raised by Francois Cels. Was it perhaps raised by either Hardy or Cels, and then introduced by the other?
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#2 of 3 posted
yesterday by
odinthor
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Yes, that's how I construe the quote. Here's my translation: "“Flower medium-sized, charmingly colored pink with marbling; the bush blooms constantly and abundantly. These three roses [among which is ‘Cels Multiflore’], children of the Luxembourg, are being propagated in the establishment of the Cels Bros.”
"Children of the Luxembourg" essentially means "Hardy or one of his underlings raised them at the Luxembourg."
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#3 of 3 posted
yesterday by
jedmar
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Agreed, parentage removed. In the case of 'Archiduchesse Thérèse Isabelle', one of the three roses mentioned in the reference, the attribution to Barbot as breeder by Gravereaux seems questionable too.
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Buyer Beware on this vendor - they recently lost an entire crop of roses and failed to tell customers from the time they lost it until they were suppose to be shipping things when it came out. They've failed to return people money who were requesting refunds. They've failed to communicate with said customers and they failed to even have proper business insurance in place in case of said crop failure.. You can find more information by googling garden roses llc -
I would bewary and uber cautious when dealing with this company based on the misdeeds and unfortunate circumstances that are currently playing out with them not willing to give people back the money they should of had in trust for presales. They instead blew the money on everything but what it should've been held to pay for. The owners of this outfit have criminal historys and it looks like they haven't actually learned a life lesson from that either.
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"The owners of this outfit have criminal historys"(sic) You are aware that that remark is, as it stands, a libelous statement?
I also note you have not been heard from on this forum before, except for one post in which you were looking for a certain rose in England. Speaking of things not adding up...
It looks to me like the nursery owners got in over their heads and I hope for their sakes and ours that they do find their feet soon.
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#2 of 2 posted
yesterday by
Amy E
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Contact your bank or credit card company and tell them that you have not received what you paid for. Tell them you want a "charge back".
Good luck and hope it works out.
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It seems that the Papa Gontier from Loubert isn't the real one. Mine has almost no thorns and the flowers aren't big. She has white at the center and no yellow. Strong fruity fragrance yes but especially the absence of thorns made me suspicious.
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#1 of 12 posted
5 days ago by
HubertG
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The most recent photo here of 'Papa Gontier' (photo ID 421719, 25 Mar 2024) from The Friends of Vintage Roses in California appears to be the most convincing to me in that it seems to match the early photos in flower form and foliage - well it's only one leaflet but it seems to have that more rounded shape. The flower form also appears to match well with "Moser Pink Striped" which must almost certainly be 'Rainbow' or 'Improved Rainbow'.
The catalogue of The Friends of Vintage Roses lists the source of their 'Papa Gontier' as "Robinson; Korbel". I'd like to know more about that origin.
It would be good to see photos of the Loubert rose as well as more of 'The Friends of Vintage Roses' clone.
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I will post a picture of my PG. It's my first flower. Growth is vigorous with beautiful light green foliage. Buds are very high centered. I checked for the thorns today and mine has rather many on the base of the shoots but once you go higher they are rare.
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#3 of 12 posted
5 days ago by
HubertG
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Pereirelover, thank you! It's quite dark and seems to be the same colour as the Loubert rose that jedmar posted back in 2008. Didn't Peter Beales have a crimson rose he was offering as 'Papa Gontier'? Perhaps this is Loubert's source, or vice versa.
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I bought nearly all Teas and Tea Noisettes from Loubert last autumn. Because of our hot walled garden in Flanders in Belgium we needed heat resistant roses so Teas were our first choice after talking to Viru and Girija Viraraghavan. Also Di Durston gave me one of the last copies of the Tea rose book so I was armed with information. Now all roses are slowly opening and although Papa has those long typically China buds the color and size made me suspicious. The fragrance however is delicious and fruity. It's my intention to compare all Teas from Loubert with the ones I find here. We need to get exact information about the Teas as there are so many imposters. Teas are the future in big parts of Western Europe as we have so many hot dry summers the past 20 years. Winters are a laugh, this winter had three months without a single day of frost.
Current HT's and Floribundas aren't compatible with hot, dry summers. I put my faith in the Teas, Noisettes and Hybrids Gigantea
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HubertG, Phillip Robinson, once with Vintage Gardens, was responsible for the beautiful gardens of the Korbel Winery in California. From memory, I think he noted there were once many old roses at the winery.
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#6 of 12 posted
5 days ago by
HubertG
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Thanks, Patricia. I just looked at the Vintage Gardens online catalogue again and note two other roses with the Robinson/Korbel provenance, namely 'Niles Cochet' and 'Rainbow' and it's interesting that the descriptions for both 'Papa Gontier' and 'Rainbow' make a point of saying that they both drop their petals cleanly. Surely if a sport and its parent had been growing in the same garden and differed too greatly from what you'd expect it would have been detected.
I'm also now wondering if the Robinson/Korbel 'Papa Gontier' was a reversion on a bush of 'Rainbow' which was then propagated.
In any case it would be great to see more photos of the Vintage Gardens 'Papa Gontier' in time to compare with the old catalogue photos.
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#7 of 12 posted
5 days ago by
HubertG
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Pereirelover, I hope your new Tea collection ends up giving you a lot of enjoyment. I don't get frosts either, although I'm in a warmer climate than Belgium, and my way of thinking is why grow a rose that might be dormant for 3 months of the year when you can grow one that can potentially flower for 12 months.
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Thank you!
Yes, Teas have much more flower potential than HT's and other modern roses so why not exploit this? I've noticed that many Teas are much more cold hardy than on paper. A friend from Germany grows many in Bavaria with great success. My garden has mostly Bourbons, Teas and Tea Noisettes now but also HP's, ramblers and a selection of modern roses that can cope with the heat in summer. Modern roses can be very beautiful too but they lack that special bit of elegance, those silky shiny petals and often they lack fragrance.
Life is too short to grow bad performing roses and I followed my heart with the Teas. Safrano has opened today and yes he's a little cheeky brat but so beautiful and elegant and the patriarch of so many roses. When I saw him today I had tears in my eyes..
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#9 of 12 posted
4 days ago by
Nastarana
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I suspect that soil quality also matters. I think teas tend to prefer a porous soil into which they can easily extend their roots. In the northern parts of the USA, soils tend to be dense and damp, and roses like teas mostly do not thrive even though zone ratings say they should. SDLM is allegedly hardy to zone 5; the sickly miserable specimen I saw at a now long gone public garden in Ohio was enough to convince me not to try it in my yard.
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Agree !! SDLM does fantastic (more blooms than leaves) at Chicago Botanical Garden's loamy soil.
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Our garden in Flanders, Belgium has loamy soil enriched with composted farm manure. Two years ago I tried Malmaison for the very first time after having read negative comments for thirty years. It was a small bare root plant but my God she took a flying start. She made 8 new shoots directly from the base and in summer I had the first wonderful flowers. First small but last year and this year really big saucers. Fragrance is strong and clove like. She's always in bloom. In February I planted the climbing sport and Capitaine Dyell de Graville which is blooming at this moment. It shows you always need to try growing a rose yourself. Mine doesn't ball at all, not even during rain.
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#12 of 12 posted
3 days ago by
Nastarana
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I had similar results growing SDLM and her sports in California, hot summers and sandy soil. I consider the House of Malmaison to be quintessential desert roses, along with Austin's 'Evelyn'. Which is not to say that these roses can't also be grown in other places, but I found them especially suited to a hot and dry climate.
As for substituting Teas for HTs, there has been a lot of breeding with HTs to make them sellable in the North American market. Have you considered also trying the early Pernetianas? Some, 'Autumn' comes to mind, also the talisman family, are quite beautiful.
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From the American Rose Society website:
QUEST FOR ZEST™ (cv. WEKsecjuc, Z277-2) PPAF
Class: Grandiflora
Color Description: Yellow
Descriptive Characteristics: Pointed and ovoid buds open to spiraled, elegant and double yellow with lighter outer petals, large, 4-5” flowers on medium-length stems, some single, some in small clusters; very glossy, medium-green foliage; very good disease resistance. Bloom Size: 4 - 5”
Petal Count: 30-40
Fragrance: Strong citrus & fruity
Height/Habit: Medium-tall, upright, moderately spreading
Parentage: 'Secret' x 'Julia Child'
Hybridizer: Christian Bédard
Introducer: Weeks Roses
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Can anyone who grows QFZ say how does it fade? White, pinkish, or pale yellow like 'Sun Flare'?
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Thank you viscount89. Details added
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As the blooms age they fade to a nice pale yellow.
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