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HubertG
most recent 5 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 20 DEC 16 by Margaret Furness
Collected by John Nieuwesteeg and named for the family who grew it.
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Reply #1 of 5 posted 20 DEC 16 by Patricia Routley
Thank you Margaret.
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Reply #2 of 5 posted 4 NOV 18 by HubertG
How regularly does this repeat? It does look more HT than anything else. It actually reminds me a bit of the early illustrations of 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam'.
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Reply #3 of 5 posted 5 NOV 18 by Margaret Furness
The expert nurseryman who collected it says it's Portland. I can't answer re repeat but will keep watching it.
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Reply #4 of 5 posted 21 JAN by Pacifier
I'm of the opinion it's likely the 1867 Baroness Rothschild (Pernet).
It keys out well with the references. George Arends is famously thornless so def not that. Lady Mary Fitzwilliam is very much in the classic HT style (unless you have Mrs Wakefield Christie Miller which was widely sold as Lady Mary).
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Reply #5 of 5 posted 5 days ago by petera
I don't currently have Baroness Rothschild to compare it with but my memory is that BR has conventional Damask style leaves, is much pricklier, and doesn't have the knobby, jointed stems. The short pedicels, flower form and total lack of fragrance are similar although S is a messier flower. From looking at the pictures on HMF the receptacle is constricted below the sepals in BR but not in S. There is a good picture of BR on HMF posted by Feva back in June 2012 to compare with my Shalice pictures.

The leaves of Shalice are very distinct; it is smooth, thin and papery, and in the spring the new foliage has a strong, silvery, metallic sheen that is not evident later in the season.

It doesn't at all resemble the plant I used have as Georg Arends. That was much like its supposed parent La France with thin stems and higher-centred flowers with a powerful perfume.
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most recent 11 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 10 MAY 18 by HubertG
From the 'Rosen-Zeitung' 1895, page 73:

"Neuste Rosen für 1894/95

(Beschreibungen der Züchter)

Strauch wüchsig und sehr remontierend; Blume sehr gefüllt, wundervoll geformt, auf geraden Stielen; Blumenblätter dick, sehr regelmässig rund, leicht aufblühend; Farbe neu in dieser Klasse, carmoisinrot samtig purpur mit lebhaft kirsch- und feuerrotem Widerschein."

My translation:

Newest Roses for 1894/95

(Descriptions of the breeders)

Bush vigorous and very remontant; flower very double, wonderfully shaped, on straight stems; petals thick, very regularly round, opening easily; colour new in this class, crimson-red velvety purple with lively cherry-red and flame-red reflexes.
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Reply #1 of 58 posted 10 MAY 18 by Patricia Routley
That's interesting: "petals thick, very regularly round". Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
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Reply #2 of 58 posted 14 MAY 18 by HubertG
This is the text accompanying the colour illustration of 'Francis Dubreuil' in the 1896 Rosen-Zeitung, page 41

"1. Francis Dubreuil. (Thee). Dubreuil 1894.
Reichblütigkeit, kräftiger Wuchs, gute Füllung, aufrechte Haltung, elegante Form und eine dunkelblutrote Färbung hatte man bisher noch nicht unter den Theerosen in einer Sorte vereinigt gefunden. In der Dubreuil'schen Züchtung haben wir etwas Hervorragendes dieser Art erhalten, so dass der Züchter mit recht sagen konnte: Die schönste, bekannte "rote Thee". Der Strauch ist wüchsig, sehr verzweigt, dunkelbläulichgrün belaubt und sehr remontierend. Die wundervoll schön geformte mittelgrosse Blume ist sehr gefüllt, wird von geraden, festen Stielen aufrecht getragen, öffnet sich bei jeder Witterung. Die samtig carmoisin purpurrote Farbe wird durch eine feuerroten Widerschein erhellt und leidet weder durch Hitze noch durch Regen leicht. Eine als Knospe geschnittene Blume dauert im Glase Wasser wohl 8 Tage lang. Für Blumenbinderei-Geschäfte wird sie ohne Fehl eine viel begehrte und gesuchte Schnittrose sein. Ihre Massenanpflanzung kann daher nur dringend empfohlen werden. Dass sie auch wegen ihrer seltenen Vorzüge schnell erkannt wurde, beweisst eine überaus starke Nachfrage in Pflanzen, sodass dieses Frühjahr wohl in keinem Geschäfte eine kräftige Pflanz unverkauft blieb. Auch dürfte sie zu Gruppenpflanzungen Verwendung finden und grosse Wirkung erzielen, doch besorge man ihr kräftige, humusreiche, lehmige Erde. Die in den letzten Jahren in den Handel gebrachten dunkelroten Thee sind von "Francis Dubreuil" alle in den Schatten gestellt. Ob sie eine Treibrose sein wird, können wir bis jetzt noch nicht sagen.
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Reply #3 of 58 posted 15 MAY 18 by Patricia Routley
Thank you HubertG. Reference added.
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Reply #4 of 58 posted 15 MAY 18 by HubertG
I should have time to do the translation tonight, Patricia.
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Reply #5 of 58 posted 15 MAY 18 by HubertG
My translation:

1. Francis Dubreuil. (Tea). Dubreuil 1894. Amongst the Tea Roses, one had not found freedom of flowering, strong growth, good petalage, upright held flowers, elegant shape and a dark blood-red colouring combined in the one variety until now. In this Dubreuil creation we have obtained something outstanding of this kind, so that the breeder can rightly say: the most beautiful known "red Tea". The bush is vigorous, very branched, foliaged dark bluish-green and very remontant. The wonderful beautifully shaped medium-sized flower is very double, borne upright on straight firm stems, opening in any weather. The velvety crimson purple-red colour is lit with a fire-red reflection and neither through heat nor through rain does it suffer easily. A flower cut as a bud lasts well for 8 days in a glass of water. For florist businesses it will become a very coveted and sought after cut rose without fail. Therefore their mass planting can only be highly recommended. The fact that it was also quickly recognised because of its rare merits, established an exceedingly strong demand for plants, so that this spring hardly any vigorous plant remained unsold in the stores. It should also find use for group plantings and achieve great effect, but still, one should give it strong humus-rich, loamy soil. 'Francis Dubreuil' eclipses all dark red Teas introduced into commerce in recent years. Whether it will become forcing rose, we cannot yet say.

I hope it's still English. I've tried to translate it as literally as possible without it sounding too Germanic.
It would be interesting for someone who grows this rose to do the 8 day vase-life test.
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Reply #6 of 58 posted 15 MAY 18 by Patricia Routley
The translation added. Thanks HubertG. The 8-day test in different seasons. I have found that the well-watered autumn roses last longer.
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Reply #7 of 58 posted 15 MAY 18 by Margaret Furness
A better test of a true Francis Dubreuil would be the scent; if it has any, it should be Tea-scented. See old references.
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Reply #8 of 58 posted 16 MAY 18 by HubertG
There is that reference that says it has a distinct apple scent.

Patricia, I left out an 'a' in the last sentence of that translation - it should be " become a forcing rose".

If the rose grown as 'Francis Dubreuil' lasts only a few days in water then that might be an argument that it isn't the original rose.
Although I haven't grown FD (and the main reason was really that it was not meant to be the correct variety), but I have to ask, since it isn't 'Barcelona' after all, what tea is it? I have to admit that it does rather match the German descriptions - regular rounded petals, dark blue-green foliage, colour description etc.
I think it might need to be reappraised as possibly the correct variety.
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Reply #9 of 58 posted 16 MAY 18 by Margaret Furness
No, I can't buy anyone describing the rose currently-sold-as FD, as scentless. When the designated scent-testers for the Rose Trial grounds in Adelaide Botanic Gardens are assessing new varieties, and find they need to re-set 10 (like setting white balance!), they go and stick their noses in "Not Francis Dubreuil".
The Tea book includes an illustration of FD from Rosen-Zeitung 1896, showing long pointed leaves. The authors conclude their discussion of Not FD by saying "...we just wish that we could call it a Tea!".
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Reply #10 of 58 posted 16 MAY 18 by HubertG
Yet the illustration from Betten's Die Rose 1903 doesn't show a long bud or leaves. Which one is correct? The Betten illustration looks more realistically drawn than the Rosen-Zeitung illustration.

I'm only going by the photos I've seen, but if this was the FD introduced in the 1890's, from its habit and freedom of flowering it wouldn't have been classed as a Hybrid Perpetual, a Bourbon or any other rose class at the time. No doubt a red tea would have had a little bit of 'something else' in its breeding to give it its colour and that perhaps makes it less typical of the appearance of the 'purer' teas, but like I say, how would this particular rose be classed back then?

I've only seen it a few times in person at visits to Parramatta Park in Sydney years ago. It certainly did have a good fragrance but I couldn't describe its scent after all this time.

At least we know it came from Sangerhausen. There can't be too many candidates in the early lists that match it.
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Reply #11 of 58 posted 28 MAY 18 by HubertG
Here's an early American reference describing FD as "very fragrant":
From G. R. Gause's 1905 Catalogue of Roses (on the inside front cover)

"RED ROSE - FRANCOIS DUBREUIL.
A new red Tea Rose of unusual merit, with fine, large, double flowers, which, in color, are equal to the best of our deep-colored Hybrid Perpetuals. The flowers are large, very full and double, with thick, regularly arranged petals. Color is red, with velvety shadings; rich and very fragrant."
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Reply #12 of 58 posted 28 MAY 18 by Margaret Furness
Interesting.
The rose photographed in 1906 isn't what is grown as FD now.
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Reply #13 of 58 posted 28 MAY 18 by HubertG
I just uploaded the illustration of Francis Dubreuil on the cover of the Gause 1905 catalogue. Unfortunately, it's one of those catalogue illustrations which aren't really an accurate depiction but probably have some semblance of truth. It actually looks half-way between the 1906 photo and the currently grown FD.
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Reply #14 of 58 posted 28 MAY 18 by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. I have added the reference. Is the spelling in the original text Francis or Francois?
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Reply #15 of 58 posted 28 MAY 18 by HubertG
Your welcome. In the original text it is spelt "Francois".
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Reply #38 of 58 posted 29 AUG 18 by HubertG
I have said previously that I did not think 'Princess Bonnie' is a contender for the real identity of FD, but this photograph of Princess Bonnie in the 1916 catalogue of Dingee & Conard (the originators) has me thinking twice about it. The blooms do look cupped, and the petals have that same flattish appearance, with the little indent on the petal edges, giving them a somewhat heart shaped look. And Princess Bonnie was very fragrant. What do others think? The photo gives a good view of the buds too. Note that one stem seems to have a small cluster of three buds.
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Reply #39 of 58 posted 29 AUG 18 by Margaret Furness
Not sure about the receptacle shape, but it's close.
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Reply #40 of 58 posted 30 AUG 18 by HubertG
The problem is that this photo doesn't really look a lot like other depictions of Princess Bonnie, and I wonder if it's a catalogue photo mix up.
Princess Bonnie's pedigree is a tea x (probably triploid) HT, so that could give a fertile diploid rose (as 'FD' does sets hips), so that would make sense. Additionally PB's pollen parent 'William Francis Bennett' does look a bit like 'FD' regarding the blooms (at least in the only photo posted here). However PBonnie is usually described as exceptionally free flowering, and I'm not sure if that could be said about 'FD'.

Also 'Admiral Schley' could be another possible contender although I don't know that they had that rose at Sangerhausen. It certainly isn't mentioned in the Rosen-Zeitung.
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Reply #41 of 58 posted 30 AUG 18 by HubertG
The rose on the left looks as if it has barely 3-4 rows of petals.
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Reply #42 of 58 posted 5 OCT 18 by HubertG
I think it's probably pretty safe to scrap 'Marion Dingee' as a possibility for the true identity of Francis Dubreuil. The 1907 newspaper article from the Leader says it's almost devoid of fragrance, and this supports the early catalogue descriptions which seem to simply omit any reference to fragrance.
From the article:
"Deep red colors are rare among roses of the tea scented class, so rare, in fact, that they may scarcely be said to exist, as the two most, strongly marked examples, Marion Dingee and Princesse de Sagan, are almost devoid of the characteristic fragrance, but though probably containing Bengal or China rose blood, are classed as teas, and are otherwise quite typical in habit, growth and constant profusion of bloom."
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Reply #16 of 58 posted 31 MAY 18 by Plazbo
I'm probably being dumb but are you calling it "Not Francis Dubreuil" because we aren't sure what is being sold in Australia is actually Barcelona? Or is it fairly certain it is Barcelona?

Just a little confused about whether I should be running it through my diploid lines or pairing it with something like Rhapsody In Blue instead...I'm assuming the latter based on a lot of comments on here.
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Reply #17 of 58 posted 31 MAY 18 by HubertG
Plazbo, I'm confused too haha. Check out "David Martin's No41" which is the most likely candidate for the 1932 'Barcelona' (in fact in my opinion there is no reason to doubt that it is Barcelona).
Somehow the rose distributed as Francis Dubreuil had been confused for Barcelona in the US hence it wasn't thought to be FD, and so has become NotFD. Anyway, that's my take on it in a nutshell anyway.
I'm sure one of the Tealadies could expand on this.

I still think that it could be the original Francis Dubreuil. As I've mentioned previously, even though it has some atypical tea characteristics, it doesn't easily fall into another class either. It does match early descriptions especially the rounded regularly arranged velvety petals, and the dark bluish-green foliage. And it did come from Sangerhausen labelled as Francis Dubreuil. True, the bloom doesn't look a lot like the 1906 photo, but some of the photos here do show recurving petal edges. It certainly (to my mind) doesn't seem anything like what one would expect a Hybrid Tea given commercial release in the 1930's to be, so isn't Barcelona.

As to its ploidy, who knows? The original FD would most likely to have come through one of those early red teas like Duchess of Edinburgh which was introduced as a tea but clearly had hybrid characteristics, perhaps self pollinated and retaining enough Tea characteristics but developing the velvety red blooms. So if it was say a self pollination of a triploid that occasionally set hips, it could end up being a diploid or a tetraploid. This is just my speculation of course. Just for comparison of a similar possible breeding, look at 'Princess Bonnie' which is from a {T x (T x HP)} cross.
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Reply #18 of 58 posted 31 MAY 18 by Margaret Furness
Sangerhausen has been through two world wars, and every big collection or garden or nursery has mislabels. Especially if the labels are small enough for the public to move around. We kept updating the labels at Renmark as new information came in, but there are still some I'm uneasy about or would change if it was worth spending more there at present. For example, what we have as Excellenz von Schubert and Merveille des Rouges are pretty clearly incorrect.
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Reply #19 of 58 posted 8 JUN 18 by HubertG
I wonder if 'Marion Dingee' might be a possibilty for this rose. There are plenty of references online but I haven't come across a reference to its fragrance. The illustrations suggest a cupped shape and often the references describe a very dark colour. Here's the coloured plate for 'Marion Dingee' from Dingee's 1892 catalogue. Dingee's give the breeding as 'Comtesse de Casserta' x 'Duchess of Edinburgh'.
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Reply #20 of 58 posted 8 JUN 18 by Patricia Routley
You might be on to something HubertG. The bloom shape is about right, the colour is about right, the "short compact" growth is about right.
We have:
1889 Marion Dingee (Early illustrations show a shorter bloom)
1894 Francis Dubreuil (Early illustrations, 1896 and 1906, show a taller bloom)
I'll search for 'Marion Dingee' in Australia later in the day.
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Reply #21 of 58 posted 8 JUN 18 by HubertG
What's a bit out of place though is the lack of fragrance in the descriptions. Dingee's other red Tea was Princess Bonnie which they lauded as one of the sweetest scented roses available. One would think to promote their own rose (in Marion Dingee), if it had a good fragrance, they would at least mention its scent when it was introduced. I don't think Princess Bonnie is a contender from early references and illustrations, by the way.

It is interesting however to compare the buds in the coloured illustration I posted above with the photo Tomartyr posted on 30 Nov 2011, photo Id 187697.
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Reply #22 of 58 posted 9 JUN 18 by billy teabag
A very quick response before a more considered one.
Reliable early Australian references to Francis Dubreuil tell us this was one of the big Teas. From memory, the 1930s reference to roses in NSW tells us it was 9 feet tall.
Even in the best conditions, with the best care and attention, the rose sold as Francis Dubreuil struggles to reach half that height.
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Reply #23 of 58 posted 9 JUN 18 by Patricia Routley
In 1893 (four years after 'Marion Dingee' was introduced,) it was said to have a "short compact growth". The 1930s was about 60 years later. I hope you will share some of those references Billy. I probably have them, but I added 15 refs to 'Marion Dingee' yesterday and must move on. (My Francis Dubreuil' manages to make about 2 feet.)
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Reply #24 of 58 posted 10 JUN 18 by billy teabag
The ref I was remembering is this one from George Knight's 1931 article Tea Roses in New South Wales which has already been added:
"What an opportunity is offered to some of the authorities in connection with the public gardens of the State to plant out some of the most vigorous of these old tea Roses and grow them into large shrubs. There is no more striking feature than to see a Rose bush eight or nine feet high, built in proportion and covered in bloom. I would suggest as some of the most suitable for this purpose : Corallina, Mme Charles, Dr. Grill, Francois Dubreuil, Mdlle. Christine de Noue and Mrs Dunlop Best. The latter makes a nice bush up to six feet. p104 Australian Rose Annual 1931.

The "Not Francis Dubreuil" we used to have also only managed about 2'6" in height and width before losing the will to live.
To my eye it looks like a hybrid of a China rose and something HP-ish.

I'll check to see whether I have anything else on my computer that hasn't been added to HMF and will have a look on Trove.
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Reply #25 of 58 posted 10 JUN 18 by HubertG
Maybe another possibility to consider is 'Friedrichsruh' from 1907. It was a cross from 'Princesse de Bearn' x 'Francis Dubreuil' and appeared to be a shorter-growing bushy rose, Sangerhausen had it in their collection and gave it a 7/10 for fragrance. That's assuming of course that the rose grown as 'Friedrichsruh' at Sangerhausen now is incorrect. And despite being classed as a Hybrid Tea it had short stems and nodding flowers.
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Reply #26 of 58 posted 10 JUN 18 by billy teabag
Worth a closer look, I think, HubertG. It's not uncommon to see mixups between roses in large collections that are close alphabetically.
Short stems and nodding flowers on a shorter plant is a good start.
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Reply #27 of 58 posted 11 JUN 18 by HubertG
That's a good point Billy. Not only is there the possibility of them being confused if they looked similar but also as their names both start with FR, a mixup could have occurred in the cataloguing. Possibly.
There are quite a few references for 'Friedrichsruh' in the Rosen-Zeitung. One describes 'Souvenir de Clos Vougeot' as in the style of a paeony "like Friedrichsruh". I'm not sure how paeony-like FD is. Perhaps a bit.
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Reply #28 of 58 posted 13 JUN 18 by Patricia Routley
I've added a few more refs for 'Friedrichsruh'.
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Reply #29 of 58 posted 13 JUN 18 by true-blue
Hubert, sorry to barge in.
I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest.

However, I doubt if Francis Dubreuil was a fragrant rose. If you check the original advertisement in Journal des roses, thee's no mention of that:
Here is the text, translated from the original:

Mr. F. Dubreuil, rose-grower, 146, route de Grenoble, of Montplaisir-Lyon has two new roses for sale; the descriptions follow:
Francis Dubreuil (Tea). — A robuste and very remontant shrub, the flower is very full, of an admirable form, upright on rigid peduncles at the tips of the canes, with thick petals, very regularly rounded, in gracefully developed curves of a cup with softened contours, opening with extreme ease, of a color absolutely novel amongst the Teas, crimson red, velvety purple with vivid cherry-amaranth highlights, the bud is an elongated ovoid shape of great beauty.
Due to the perfection of its form and the intensity of its purple and amaranth hues, this variety constitutes the most beautiful red Tea Rose known
This variety has been awarded: 1) the silver medal of the Society of Practical Horticulture of the Rhône; 2) a prize at the Universal Exposition at Lyon, concourse of Jue 1894; 3) a first-class certificate from the Lyonnaise Horticultural Association.
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Reply #30 of 58 posted 14 JUN 18 by HubertG
True-blue, no need to apologise. :-) The omission of the description of a fragrance when any rose is introduced is rather suspicious of it not having much scent. However an omission doesn't necessarily mean it didn't have a fragrance. There are other references which say it was fragrant, but when they come from catalogues trying to sell stock, you need to be a bit discerning, I suppose, as to whether they are exaggerations. The early apple fragrance description intrigues me.

Patricia, wow, you've been busy adding to 'Friedrichsruh'! Last I looked there were only half a dozen or so references. I want to add some more from the Rosen-Zeitung but maybe not till the weekend. One describes the buds and leaves in detail (including a bud photo), another says how it is mildew-free and the fragrance is intoxicating and emits particularly after rain. The mildew-free description is interesting because the few photos here of 'Friedrichsruh' from Sangerhausen show a somewhat mildew affected plant! (well it looks that way to me).

What's interesting about 'Friedrichsruh' is that it is a child of 'Francis Dubreuil'. If only we had an inexpensive genetic test to find out how much two roses are related to each other!
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Reply #31 of 58 posted 15 JUN 18 by true-blue
Hubert, if memory serves me well, none of the French sources, noted FD as fragrant, hence my conclusion that is most probably not fragrance worthy....
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Reply #32 of 58 posted 28 JUL 18 by HubertG
I just came across this one: "Francois Menard" a velvety crimson globular tea from 1892.
Sangerhausen's description: "
Ménard, François (tea) Tesnier 1892; crimson, centre velvety cherry, very large, very double, globular, floriferous, thick smooth branches, growth 6/10, bushy, short."

I haven't researched it at all yet - no initial mention of fragrance either - but I thought it might be interesting to look at it as a contender for "Francis Dubreuil" considering too they are both a Francois (well nearly).
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Reply #33 of 58 posted 29 JUL 18 by HubertG
Here's my translation of the description of Francois Menard in the Rosen-Zeitung (from German, which would have been originally from French):

François Ménard (Tea). Shrub low, very vigorous, bushy, fairly smooth and thick-wooded, beautiful dark green foliage; bud very thick on a firm stem, flower very large, very double, globular, beautifully held; beautiful crimson red, centre cherry red blending to velvety crimson, choice, floriferous. (originates from a seedling).

Not sure about the "smooth" wood, if it fits "FD", and although the colour is crimson, that might not necessarily be a dark crimson. No mention of fragrance.
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Reply #34 of 58 posted 29 JUL 18 by true-blue
Hubert, I sifted through my Journal des Roses/Amis des Rose, couldn't find anything tangible.
I checked the L'Haÿ's site, nada.

I found this in Page 42 of Dingee and Conard, 1898

Francois Menard.—New, crimson red, passing to purple.
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Reply #35 of 58 posted 29 JUL 18 by true-blue
I found this to in
Journal of Horticulture and Practical Gardening, Volume 26, page 288, March 22, 1892


New French roses
....
15, François Ménard (Tesnier) - Crimson red, centre cherry red, passing into velvety crimson. Very large, very full, globular firm stem.

Link is : https://books.google.ca/books?id=U_xIAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA238&lpg=PA238&dq=rose+%22Francois+Ménard%22&source=bl&ots=_Dil-Ncm9U&sig=W0tv7tp-kSoSpN2ry0yeA73z0Sw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiWjvDUzsTcAhUvVt8KHTY5Ajo4ChDoATAAegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=rose%20%22Francois%20Ménard%22&f=false
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Reply #36 of 58 posted 30 JUL 18 by HubertG
True-Blue It looks like Francois Menard never really caught on anywhere. Of course if the rose sold as Francis Dubreuil came from Sangerhausen, it could be any obscure rose from that collection, so doesn't necessarily rule out Francois Menard, but some aspects of FM seem to fit and others don't. If only 'Marion Dingee' came with a description of scent...
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Reply #37 of 58 posted 6 AUG 18 by HubertG
Here's another contender to consider: Mme. Rivoy. Dingees class it among their Tea Roses in 1897 but say it is an old variety and has HP characteristics. From their catalogue:

"MADAME RIVOY.* Looks like a Hybrid Perpetual in Flower and Foliage. Is Hardy. In this grand old variety we have a Rose of no ordinary excellence. It is entitled to a place among Ever-blooming Roses equal to that which General Jacqueminot takes among Hybrid Perpetuals. Indeed it is not unlike a Hybrid Perpetual in the extra-large, full and loosely-formed double flowers, enchanting fragrance, intensity of color, large handsome foliage, and extreme vigor of growth ; it is hardy with slight protection, a quick, constant and profuse bloomer, and for outdoor culture cannot be excelled by any Rose of its color. The flowers are produced in wonderful abundance upon long stiff stems, and in color may be described as a rich crimson scarlet; very bright and effective. We doubt if any of our customers have ever seen this lovely Rose, and it is for their benefit, that all may secure one of the finest and best Roses grown, that we call special attention to it by our truthful illustration."

They include an illustration which isn't totally incompatible with "FD".
I don't know if it was in the Sangerhausen collection.
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Reply #43 of 58 posted 13 JUN 19 by J.D.Esseintes
Hubert,
Your translation describes very closely the rose I saw today at the Huntington Botanical Gardens.
Even in the scorching summer heat this great rose is blooming nicely. It retains a very deep red and old damask fragrance.
On the tag it's written: Francis Dubreuil. (Tea) Dubreuil 1894
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Reply #44 of 58 posted 13 JUN 19 by HubertG
J.D.Esseintes,
Yes, I agree the description seems to match. The stumbling block is the strong damask fragrance of this rose which is something lacking in the early descriptions of 'Francis Dubreuil'. Whether this rose in the Huntington is really 'Barcelona' either, I don't know. It doesn't really look like a 1930's HT either to me.
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Reply #48 of 58 posted 23 MAY 20 by true-blue
J.D.Esseintes,
The rose from Huntington is Barcelona...
See Kim Rupert's story on Dubreuil's page.

Hubert, sometimes ice can accept that the rose is lost... and when it's time, it'll be found but not yet.....:)
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Reply #49 of 58 posted 23 MAY 20 by billy teabag
Just to keep things interesting, there is a red Hybrid Tea rose named Barcelona growing in a established garden in the south west of Western Australia. It was purchased in the early 1960s and grows with an extensive collection of classic 20th century HTs.
Plants have been propagated from the original plant and a number of people are now growing this rose alongside “ex Sangerhausen [not] Francis Dubreuil”.
As the plants become more established we will be able to add to photos and descriptions on HMF but we can report that this Barcelona is not the same as “Not Francis Dubreuil”.

HubertG - if you are able to access your Private Messages, I have left a message there about another rose that I hope you may be able to help track down.
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Reply #50 of 58 posted 23 MAY 20 by HubertG
Billy, I received your message and replied, thanks.

Just on the Australian 'Barcelona' :- I've seen quite a few recommendations for growing this rose in newspapers from the 1950s. It seems to have found a niche popularity in Western Australia mid-century.
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Reply #51 of 58 posted 23 MAY 20 by true-blue
Billy I wonder what the roses think of all these names we give them!
What's in a name? Indeed....
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Reply #52 of 58 posted 23 MAY 20 by billy teabag
Too true True blue! I have one named “lovely Pink HT received as Radiance but isn’t” for example.
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Reply #53 of 58 posted 23 MAY 20 by Margaret Furness
As someone who had to make study names (and original ones) fit onto labels we were ordering, I can only say Aaaargh!
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Reply #54 of 58 posted 24 MAY 20 by true-blue
At one point when I was translating Francis Dubreuil's info, I had this crazy idea of creating a Facebook page, for Francis Dubreuil.
Lost French rose, wine coloured, scentless, majestic and tall, last seen in the vicinity of Sydney, Australia ,in the late 1930s fleeing European doom and gloom has step brother who goes by the name of Barcelona or he who wants to be Barcelona but is not really.....
Thankfully I gave up :)
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Reply #55 of 58 posted 24 MAY 20 by billy teabag
Haha. We go around and around but hopefully in a spiral slowly going somewhere and not an endless loop.
Please don’t give up.
I would so love to meet Francis Dubreuil.
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Reply #45 of 58 posted 23 MAY 20 by HubertG
Sometimes when I'm browsing old online catalogues I'll see a photo of a rose which immediately reminds me of the rose sold as 'Francis Dubreuil'. Almost invariably the photo is either of 'Gruss an Teplitz' or 'Etoile de France', enough to make me wonder if 'Francis Dubreuil' (sold as) has either of these in its pedigree. I then happened to come across 'Defiance' by Kress, 1914, which is 'Gruss an Teplitz' x 'Etoile de France'. The descriptions match generally, and the photo here I think bears a resemblance to FD. Note that the photo in the 'Defiance' file looks as if the petals are margined in white, but I'm sure that this has been retouching of the photo probably done to enhances the definition. Similar retouching can be seen in the leaf veins and its also very obvious in other photos from the Cromwell Gardens catalogues. Defiance was listed at Sangerhausen as well, so I'm just wondering if this might be a possible contender for 'Francis Dubreuil'.
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Reply #46 of 58 posted 23 MAY 20 by Margaret Furness
Another interesting idea. But even force-fed at Renmark (the HRIA Collection gets the same fertigation regime as the cut-flower rows), 5-6" (15cm) for bloom size is too big.
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Reply #47 of 58 posted 23 MAY 20 by HubertG
I did see that reference to 'Defiance' having 5-6" flowers but it was modern, from 2000, and I have no idea from where they are obtaining that information about a rose believed lost, so one wonders about its accuracy, especially if 'Gruss an Teplitz' has only 2½" flowers.

Anyway, it's just some food for thought.
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Reply #56 of 58 posted 25 MAY 20 by Patricia Routley
HubertG, the 2000 reference to Defiance was repeated from 1947.
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Reply #57 of 58 posted 26 MAY 20 by HubertG
I completely missed seeing that reference. Thanks. I guess that rules 'Defiance' out.
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Reply #58 of 58 posted 11 days ago by pps
Indeed, a very literal, I think too literal translation that is not fully understandable. My translation would be:

1. Francis Dubreuil. (Tea rose). Dubreuil 1894.
Abundant flowering, vigorous growth, well double-flowered, upright posture, elegant form and a dark crimson coloration had not yet been found among the tea roses united in a single variety. In Dubreuil's breeding we have received something outstanding of this kind, so that the breeder could rightly say: The most beautiful known "red tea rose". The bush is vigorous, highly branched, dark bluish green foliage and strongly repeat-flowering. The gorgeously shaped medium sized flower is very double, supported erect by straight, firm stems, and opens in all weather. The velvety crimson purple color is brightened by a fiery red reflection and does not suffer easily from heat or rain. A flower cut as a bud will last in a glass of water for probably 8 days. For florist stores, it will undoubtedly be a much sought-after cut rose. Its mass planting can therefore only be strongly recommended. The fact that it was also quickly recognized for its rare advantages is proven by an extremely strong demand for the plants, so that this spring probably no strong plant remained unsold in any store. It should also be used for group plantings and achieve great effect, but one should provide it with strong, humus-rich, loamy soil. The dark red tea roses brought into commerce in recent years have all been eclipsed by 'Francis Dubreuil'. Whether it will become a greenhouse cut rose, we cannot say yet.
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most recent 12 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 12 FEB 20 by HubertG
The long, pointed bud is really quite distinct on this variety. It's the kind of feature that I imagine might be included in early catalogue descriptions under its original name. It might be helpful in its identification.
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Reply #1 of 11 posted 13 FEB 20 by Patricia Routley
it certainly might be. I have never really noticed the buds on the budded plant being as long as the own root potted plant showed recently. But agree, it is something to watch for. (I will contact you in May for a postal address, but you can start preparing a planting hole fairly soon. A cutting grown plant has your name on it. )
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Reply #2 of 11 posted 13 FEB 20 by HubertG
Patricia, many thanks, I'm looking forward to it (and whatever fragrance it might have).
Do you think it is a variety that might have had exhibition potential in its time? I ask because I'm trying to look up old varieties that are potential identities, and when I look at the photo of 8 March 2014 (id 244836) it seems to have pretty good form in its opening bud stage, even though other photos show it quite loose in its open stage.
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Reply #3 of 11 posted 13 FEB 20 by Patricia Routley
No I don’t think it is an exhibition rose, simply because it doesn’t keep its early shape for long.
I did a most interesting piece of research once on the roses recommended by the National Rose Society of Western Australia from 1933 to 1969. It showed the exhibition and garden roses and I managed to squeeze in a very basic colour guide as well. Because they were recommended, I am presuming that more of them were planted and the chances of some of them surviving is probably quite high. From that listing there are a few that I need to look at more closely, but really, at this stage none of these really jumps out at me.
Ballet 1858
Editor McFarland 1931
Eiffel Tower 1963
First Love 1950
Korovo 1931
Margaret 1954
Michelle Meilland 1945
Show Girl 1945
Silver Lining 1958
Sterling 1933
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Reply #4 of 11 posted 14 FEB 20 by Patricia Routley
Not Mrs. Georgia Chobe. See refs for that rose, and main page for "Ruth Spencer's Chowerup Pink Tea".
But thanks for the possibility (as evidenced in your refs)
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Reply #5 of 11 posted 15 FEB 20 by HubertG
Yes, I was considering 'Mrs. Georgia Chobe' but that seems to be more of an exhibition type.
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Reply #6 of 11 posted 29 FEB 20 by HubertG
Patricia, how do you think your rose might compare with 'Mrs. E. Willis'? I can see similarities in the two photos here. I'm not sure about the references to salmon pink though.
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Reply #7 of 11 posted 1 MAR 20 by Patricia Routley
Could be, but only in the hot summer blooms of the own-root “Ruth Spencer” have I seen the centre stamens displayed so prominently as in one of the photos of ‘Mrs. E. Willis’. In 1938 Alister Clark called that rose refined and “Ruth Spencer’s” ages in the way of an unmade bed.
Recently I saw a cluster of three opening blooms on the Fortuneana rootstocked rose and thought, if I was an exhibitor, I would like to have shown that cluster. So perhaps I was too hasty in saying it might not have been an exhibition rose.
Something a few days ago made me look at “Ruth Spencer’s” and think of Sunny South’. It may have been a slight squaring of the petal edge that made me think so. I have followed this line of thought and looked at the ‘Sunny South’ parentage and descendants but have drawn a blank.

Perhaps my foundling may be the same as one of the two ‘Mrs. Fred Danks’ at Thomas for Roses, as mentioned in the 2005 reference for that rose. We could be seeing a clear difference in the two versions, rather than just “one more pinkie”.
‘Mrs. Fred Danks’ (white filaments)
‘Mrs. Fred Danks’ (red filaments)

What colour do you make of the filaments of Mrs. Fred Danks’ at the Alister Clark garden at Bulla? See here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Alister_Clark_roses#/media/File:Mrs_Fred_Danks_ACMRG_March_2011.jpg
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Reply #8 of 11 posted 1 MAR 20 by HubertG
It's hard to determine the colour of the filaments from that photo. To me they look whitish with a definite pink cast. That probably doesn't help.

I should add that looking at the two photos here of 'Mrs. Fred Danks' in the Alister Clark Garden uploaded by hmfusr on 15 Nov 13, there's something about them that doesn't really gel with me as looking like the 'Mrs. Fred Danks' that I know - they're rather high-centred, outer petals reflex differently, looks rather double, no white petal edges. I'm not saying it's the wrong rose; maybe those particular blooms were just atypical. However I couldn't rule out a mixup, especially as I notice that the photo of 'Amy Johnson' in your link above doesn't appear to be the 'Amy Johnson' that I grow.
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Reply #9 of 11 posted 13 days ago by Patricia Routley
HubertG, how did you get on with the small plant of “Ruth Spencer’s Chowerup Pink HT”? Did it grow for you?
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Reply #10 of 11 posted 12 days ago by HubertG
I'll have to check it again. I did make the mistake of planting it near a fence within access from a possum or two, but recently my garden has been like a jungle of weeds owing to time constraints from caring for my elderly mother. I haven't been able to care for the garden properly for the last couple of years. I'll let you know, Patricia.
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Reply #11 of 11 posted 12 days ago by Patricia Routley
If you find anything left of it, I think it may be either ‘Killarney’ 1898, ‘Double Killarney’ 1907, or ‘Dark Pink Killarney’ 1910. There are quite a few UK Annual references I need to type up yet to get a clearer picture of which one.
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most recent 12 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 21 JAN by J.E.Leahy
Di Durston (Perth HRiA) is investigating three roses that look similar to ROR Mrs Frances Pickles - two being Laurette and Rubens. Looking at photos of Laurette it looks closer to Mrs Frances Pickles than Rubens. Could it be???
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Reply #1 of 8 posted 21 JAN by Patricia Routley
What makes you think “Mrs Frances Pickles “ could be a tea, and not a hybrid tea?
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Reply #2 of 8 posted 14 days ago by J.E.Leahy
I have compared the old and new leaves and sepals to some other yellow flowered Teas - Bouquet D'Or, Lady Hillingdon, Devoniensis, Reve D'Or and find that the leaf colour on both older and new leaves corresponds with the classic tea colouring. The leaf shape is more lanceolate than ovate, although this could be misleading as the leaves of Mons. Tillier are more ovate than other tea roses.The sepals of Lady Hillingdon curve upwards as they age. The Shrub is open and looser in shape than early hybrid teas I have growing here and the flower shape corresponds to that of Reve D'Or , Bouquet D'Or , Devoniensis, and Mme Lambard. see photos.
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Reply #3 of 8 posted 13 days ago by Patricia Routley
Judy, your comment is most interesting. I have been growing “Mrs. Frances Pickles” for 20 years and have only ever seen it as being a hybrid tea. It is so good to have new eyes looking at it - and sharing their thoughts.

‘Bouquet d’Or’ and ‘Reve d’Or’ have a lot of noisette in them.
Flower shape: “Mrs. Frances Pickles” outline can vary from rounded to pointed.
I would call “Mrs. Frances Pickles” leaf shape oval or ovate.
The description of lanceolate I have been using is: “Lance-shaped, being broadest at the centre, but three or more times as long as broad with an acute apex [pointed tip] and a rounded base”. (Think of Sir Galahad on his horse with that long lance.)
Recently I found prickles under the midrib - in past years I noted that under midrib was smooth. What do you find?
Both of us need to photograph the stipule.

What I do find fascinating is your comment on the sepals of ‘Lady Hillingdon’ curving upwards (I will later take and add photos of this trait to the ‘Lady Hillingdon’ file). On April 20, 2010 I added a “Mrs Frances Pickles” hip photo with sepals curving upwards. So, looking further…..at the parentage of ‘Lady Hillingdon’ we need to read the references for the yellow-white ‘Madame Hoste’ to see what we can find.

In the meantime, it would be good to have thoughts from Margaret Furness and Sue Zwar on what class they think “Mrs. Frances Pickles” might be - tea or hybrid tea?
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Reply #4 of 8 posted 13 days ago by Margaret Furness
I haven't grown it myself, and the photos taken at Renmark were, as always, in a hurry. I didn't question the HT classification.
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Reply #5 of 8 posted 13 days ago by billy teabag
It's worth having a look at the prickles. Laurette and the rose sold as Rubens are the same rose and it is often completely devoid of prickles. Strong new growth can have some prickles when young but most do not persist as the wood hardens.
I grow the rose sold as Rubens (ex Melvilles Rose Nursery, ex Ruston Roses, ex foundling from Blakiston Cemetery) and one propagated from the Laurette that grew in the Heritage Rose Garden at Pinjarra (ex Walter Duncan, who propagated it from a named plant growing in the Adelaide Botanic Gardens). They have grown side by side for over 20 years and are indistinguishable.
I haven't grown "Mrs Francis Pickles".
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Reply #6 of 8 posted 12 days ago by HubertG
I don't grow this rose and am only going by the photos, but the unopened buds look rather untealike as does that long-shaped hip from Patricia from 20 Apr 2010. The flower does have that slightly cabbagey that look you sometimes see in 'Caroline Testout' progeny.

I'm wondering if it's one of those Dickson Hybrid Teas from the pre-WWI period which seem to contain a lot of Tea blood. Purely speculation, but if Dickson produced essentially thornless Teas like 'Alexander Hill Gray' and 'Molly Sharman Crawford' and used such Teas in his breeding programme, a relatively thornless Hybrid Tea could be the result.

I think a big clue to solving its identity must lie in its relative thornlessness.

My other thought was an ancestor or sibling of 'Columbia' (because of its few thorns). I had a quick look but nothing obvious stood out.
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Reply #7 of 8 posted 12 days ago by Margaret Furness
Interesting idea, but maybe another of the near-thornless Teas. AHG has only one descendant listed, and Molly S-C has none. Perhaps that green centre of Molly replaces functioning reproductive elements.
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Reply #8 of 8 posted 12 days ago by HubertG
Yes, that era seemed to have a lot of Teas and Hybrid Teas which were borderline to categorise into one or the other. For example, 'Mrs Herbert Stevens', which incidentally seems to have hips that have upright sepals. I think of it as a Tea. Its given pedigree says otherwise (although I doubt that's correct) but I have no doubt there's some hybridity in its background.

I looked at what hips I get off my 'Lady Hillingdon' and don't see any marked tendency for upright sepals.
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