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scvirginia 
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"Trinity", Tea, should be classified as Bermuda Mystery Rose, not a Bermuda Rose. It is what is called a Found Rose in the USA.
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I'm not sure I understand about this one, "Trinity (Tea, Bermuda Rose)" is already classified as a found rose on HMF - note both the found rose designation and the name is enclosed in double quotes. We do not have a class called Bermuda Mystery Rose, rather we use the combination Bermuda Rose and Found Rose to indicate such. Do you see this as a problem - we would be interested in your opinion.
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The O.P. (sadly now deceased) was Liesbeth Cooper, the rosarian from Bermuda who studied, preserved and helped establish this 'class' of roses. If she thought the class should be called Bermuda Mystery Roses instaed of simply Bermuda Roses, her opinion should have some weight.
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I believe the class of Bermuda Rose should be deleted altogether from the selection of Old Garden Roses. In this case to leave just the two classes of Found Rose, and Tea.
In Australia, the foundlings are not classed as Australian Rose; nor in England as English Rose, etc.
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I can't tell you how often I've searched for roses using that classification. And now I can't.
Having a "class" for found roses for a large country like Australia or the U.S. doesn't make sense, because there are so many different climates, and so many different foundlings of different types.
Bermuda, however, is a small island and if I want to search for a tough rose that is tolerant of heat and humidity, these roses are pretty much guaranteed to do well in my growing conditions.
I would really love to be able to search for found roses by country or climate.
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#5 of 11 posted
4 days ago by
Lee H.
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I rather agree. Peter Beales dedicated a bit of space to them in Classic Roses, and they are detailed in that book as a class under Chinensis by the President of the Bermuda Rose Society, Lorna Mercer.
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There is no doubt in my mind that Bermuda Rose is not a Class of Old Garden Roses - despite being offered as a Class by HelpMeFind.
Old Garden Roses:
Agatha/Agathe
Alba
Ayrshire
Bermuda Rose
Bourbon
Bourbon, Cl.
Boursault
Centifolia
The Classes of roses grown in Bermuda are teas, chinas, hybrid perpetual, rambler, noisettes, etc. and found roses.
If a list of roses grown in that country is required, then I suggest adding synonyms of "Bermuda whatever" to the few that lack that prefaced name.
You can certainly search for found roses by country or climate:
Use Advanced Search, select Found Rose, and under Origin, select country.
Also using Advanced Search, under Growing, one can search using the hot climate Zones.
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You wrote: "If a list of roses grown in that country is required, then I suggest adding synonyms of "Bermuda whatever" to the few that lack that prefaced name."
Adding "Bermuda whatever" to the names of the roses that don't already have it is gonna be tricky unless we already know which roses need these synonyms. Before you deleted all the roses from this category, did you check to be sure they all had 'Bermuda' somewhere in the name?
Did you check with whoever added this category to HMF in the first place? Somebody went to some trouble to add the category to HMF, and then to add the relevant roses.
FYI, I just did a search for found roses with Bermuda as the country of origin, and the search returned five roses. When I searched for found roses in India, I got one hit.
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#8 of 11 posted
3 days ago by
jedmar
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I disagree with this one-sided deletion. "Bermuda Rose" might not be a class as defined by ARS, but it is a well-known term within the World Federation of Rose Societies since at least 1987, and supported by several publications and articles. From the Foreword of "Roses in Bermuda Revisited": ... our many "Mysteries", some of which have been accorded the ultimate accolade of simply being known as 'Bermuda' roses.
Bermuda's special climate has preserved many long-lost Teas and Chinas. It is of interest to researchers to have these specifically mentioned. The reference that there is no class of Australian or English found roses is not relevant, as those terms are already captured by Ausbred roses and English roses (by Austin).
Such a move should have been the result of a proper discussion, taking into account of the opinions of members from the Conservation & Heritage community, especially from Bermuda.
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This is one of those issues where further input from the HelpMeFind rose community is requested/welcomed.
On the surface, it centers around contrasting opinions of experts presenting very cogent arguments for their positions. Should the Bermuda rose class be included as an official designation for Old Garden Roses? From a purely technical standpoint, it may not be appropriate but it's use has been accepted by other noteworthy references for some time.
Strict factual vs historic/commonly accepted representation is not a new issue for HMF and as a mutable resource we are able to best address this type of controversy. Often the solution is as easy as tracking down the source of misinformation and making the appropriate correction on HMF. Those are by far the most satisfying but sometimes it's not possible to readily ascertain which conflicting resources/opinions are "correct". In these cases, the best we can do is document the differing opinions.
In this instance, it may be best resolved with some sort of compromise. Maybe we need an official "Bermuda" class designation along with a new "Bermuda (historical)" class or possibly a thorough explanation of our use of the Bermuda class designation.
We invite comments from the community.
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#10 of 11 posted
yesterday by
HubertG
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My two cents for what it's worth ...
They aren't strictly a class of rose in the sense that (as Patricia rightly points out) they incorporate other classes of roses like Teas, Chinas, Hybrid Teas etc, etc.; they are more like a category or subset of various classes.
However I think it's useful knowing where these found roses originated and so having the prefix "Bermuda" attached to those roses which don't already have that makes the best sense to me. Just like all the roses found at Bishops Lodge at Hay, New South Wales have the prefix "Bishops Lodge" attached to them to designate their special origin.
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#11 of 11 posted
yesterday by
HMF Admin
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Very helpful, thank you.
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Description states : "Do not prune."
In fact it likes to be pruned in a hard way, once in a few years.
It tends to overgrow itself and the lower/earlier branched die or get less vigorous/less flowering.
It produces lots of fresh shoots, that flower very quickly.
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This tendency to overgrow itself and then struggle to maintain overall vigour is very much my experience as well Jay-Jay. We're in Perth, Western Australia, where our winters are very mild and Mme Alfred C flowers beautifully through the coldest months here.
We definitely need to seriously reduce its bulk and length from time to time, or large parts of the plant weaken or die.
Like you say, it responds very well to trimming or to a harder cut back.
It's a rose you see over a very wide range of climate zones, so perhaps the 'Do not prune' advice is for rose growers in much colder climates? Though I'm guessing you have seriously frozen winters Jay-Jay, and the advice is incorrect everywhere.
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Instead of a blanket suggestion to not prune (which seems to have now disappeared), should there be any recommendation for how to prune MAC?
For example, should the recommendation be one of the following standard regimens?:
Remove unproductive wood every year.
Remove unproductive wood every other year.
Cut back by one-half every other year.
Resist the urge to prune this rose too heavily—it doesn't like it!
Thanks for any recommendations you can suggest.
Virginia
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#3 of 4 posted
3 days ago by
Jay-Jay
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I would suggest: Observe the rose during its growth over the years and give it, what it needs:
Remove all dead canes, remove (end)parts of the original canes at the point where a vigorous (and flowering) shoot comes out of that original cane.
Prune when You have the time, feel the need or urge to, or just postpone it to another time when You are in need of a chore?
Once in so many years in spring just cut with a saw-blade the bulk of one of the big canes and let that cane start over again from the base.
And the best guide is Your own experience with Your own roses in Your own garden (or someone elses'.)
Success.
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Thanks. I don't grow this rose, but was trying to see if there is a pruning recommendation HMF should give in lieu of 'do not prune'. If so, I intend to update the HMF record to provide guidance for readers who grow this variety.
I listed a few standard pruning recommendations that HMF has, and am wondering if any of those are suitable in a general way for MAC.
Thanks,
Virginia
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The somewhat bizarre (for a Tea) parentage given by the Rosenlexikon seems to derive from its mixing up the HP 'Elie Lambert' with the Tea 'Mme. Elie Lambert', and being a bit imaginative to boot. The Journal des Roses tells us, in 1889 (p. 120): "Our collaborator Jean Sisley lets us know that Mr. Elie Lambert, rosieriste of Lyon, has bred a very pretty Tea Rose that he intends to release to commerce this autumn under the name of 'Madame Elie Lambert'. Here's the description of this newcomer: 'From the Tea 'Anna Olivier' fertilized by the Tea 'Souvenir de Paul Neyron'. Very floriferous, in panicles of 4 to 7 flowers, well-held, very double, globular, very well formed. The outer petals, for about half their length, are yellowish white; those of the center are a beautiful light pink. A most remarkable variety, and distinct, because of the two quite separate nuances. The plant is vigorous without being climbing."
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I edited it. Thanks for the correction.
Virginia
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''Moderate fragrance'' is something of an understatement for this striking and beautifully scented, Edwardian HT..
Notwithstanding they were in the business of selling it, references by E.G. Hill 1910.. Dicksons 1914, and H. Kemp 1909 are on the ball. Piffle to Rosenlexikon 1936..
Exceptionally vigorous 'own root' and does not need a rootstock where I am.. [East Anglia, England, 2024]..
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Hi Marlorena-
I've changed the description from 'moderate' to 'strong'. Thanks for your feedback and sumptuous photos!
Virginia
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Thanks Virginia !..
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