HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 6 MAY 20 SHOW ALL
Initial post 26 JAN 16 by Raynyk
Maybe 'Banshee', Rosa x suionum and 'Dornenlose Kreiselrose' should be added as synonyms and the other roses be merged with this one?

According to Hellmer Merker and Ernst Loménius (1985) Rosa x suionum is identical with 'Minette'.

Other old names in popular speech is "svearnas ros" in Sweden, "nordens rose" in Norway.

Rosor för nordiska trädgårdar
Author Lars-Åke Gustavsson, 1998

Quote from page 139-140:

'Minette', nordisk ros
Syn.: Rosa x suionum Almqv.; svearnas ros.
Hellmut Merker och Ernst Loménius har klarlagt dess ursprung och återgett den dess ursprungliga namn, se Merker 1985 a och b.
Reply #1 of 4 posted 29 JAN 16 by Patricia Routley
I won't even tackle 'Banshee' at the moment, but It does seem as though Rosa x suionum and 'Minette' should be merged. However, I hesitate to because of the words "the rose currently available/ sold as 'Minette'."
I note that Rosa x suionum is shown as a Turbinata, and 'Minette as an alba, Centifolia.
And I would like to add that I am way, way out of my depth here.
Reply #2 of 4 posted 29 JAN 16 by Raynyk
I have no photos of my own but I'll try to attach photos in this post of Rosa x suionum taken by P.H. Salvesen (Arboretum and Botanic Garden, Bergen Museum, University of
Bergen) published in their article "På jakt etter kulturminneroser i gamle hager langs kysten av Norge" by him and Per Arvid Åsen (Agder Naturemuseum and Botanic Garden, Kristiansand).
My own translation of the title; Searching for cultural heritage roses along the coast of Norway.

They write that Merker identified Rosa x suionum as a synonym based on the plant at Sangerhausen marked as 'Minette' 1985.

In the article it is noted that J.A. Nannfeldt and Lars-Åke Gustavsson question wether the rose currently labeled 'Minette' is the original one, but there is consensus that the currently labeled 'Minette' (that one that is presented as 'Minette' at HMF) and Rosa x suionum are identical.

The article can be read in the pdf below:
"På jakt etter kulturminneroser i gamle hager langs kysten av Norge"
av: Per Harald Salvesen, Arboretet og Botanisk hage, Bergen Museum & Per Arvid Åsen, Agder Naturmuseum og Botaniske hage
Reply #3 of 4 posted 29 JAN 16 by Patricia Routley
The files are merged. Thank you for your patience
Reply #4 of 4 posted 6 MAY 20 by jedmar
In have added a rough English translation of the Norwegian text you mentioned. Now we need a comparison of the characteristics of Rosa x suionum with the description of 'Minette' by Prevost (1829).
Addition: Also the English test of Joy (2006) on "Mustialanruusu" and the translation of Gerda Nissen's text on "Dornenlose Kreiselrose" added.
'Minette' is not marked in the Rosenlexikon of 1936 as existing in Sangerhausen. According to Ms. Nissen it arrived there only in 1940. Now in April 1940 Germany had occupied Denmark and Norway prior to France in June 1940. If roses were being sent to Sangerhausen as part of the booty, this rose might well have come from Norway instead of France, and mislabeled on arrival (by intention?) No documentation as to provenance seems fishy.
most recent 10 MAY 18 SHOW ALL
Initial post 28 MAR 16 by Jukka K
I got R. primula from Belle Epoque, Holland, two years ago. Thd foliage is very small, shiny, and extremely fragrant, even pungent at close range. This must be the true species. I had one from another nursery years ago and it had no scented foliage.
R. primula is from a continental hot-summer climates, so likely will be short-lived here (Finland). There were a few flowers on my plant last summer and I was able to collect some pollen. I pollinated R. rubiginosa with it and got a small number of seeds. My aim is to create hybrids with fragrant foliage and better adaptation to our climate. Another hybrid partner could be R. glutinosa.

Reply #1 of 4 posted 29 MAR 16 by Give me caffeine
Interesting project. Best of luck with that. The results could be good.
Reply #2 of 4 posted 29 MAR 16 by Jukka K
Thanks, Gmc. In my dreams there would be a mix of fragrance genes in the progeny so that completely new notes would emerge from the pine, apple-mint and incense scents of these species. A bit like in scented geraniums. :)
Reply #3 of 4 posted 8 APR 16 by Raynyk
Good luck with this interesting project!
Reply #4 of 4 posted 10 MAY 18 by JasonSims1984
Did your fragrant foliage project ever produce anything interesting? :)
most recent 2 NOV 17 SHOW ALL
Initial post 29 OCT 17 by Raynyk
I agree with the other comments about Alika's resemblance to R. gallica splendens.
R. gallica splendens are synonymous with Frankfurt (and probably R. francofurtana) and Valamoruusu.

Valamoruusu was and is widespread in Finland, who was a part of Russia at the time, and St Petersburg are very close to Finland in any case.
It's not far fetched to theorise that when Hansen collected material at St Petersburg it was a Valamoruusu clone he brought with him.

And as Valamoruusu have been identified as synonymous to Rosa gallica splendens and Frankfurt, all these entries should be merged. Or at least the similarities could be commented in some way at the description pages.

Per Arvid Åsen and Per Harald Salvesen also say that all of the aforementioned are synonymous.

"På jakt efter gamle kulturminnesroser i gamle hager langs kysten av Norge" 2010
(My own free translation: Searching for old garden roses along the coast of Norway)
Per Harald Salvesen, Arboretet og Botanisk hage, Bergens Museum.
Per Arvid Åsen, Agder Naturmuseum og Botanisk hage.
Reply #1 of 3 posted 31 OCT 17 by jedmar
We will add a note until other sources confirm that 'Alika' and 'Rosa gallica splendens' are synonymous. Can you post the corresponding Norwegian text from the book of Salvesen and Åsen? Rosa francofurtana Borkh. is said to be slightly different than 'Rosa gallica splendens'. It seems that there are variations.
Reply #2 of 3 posted 1 NOV 17 by Raynyk
To be more clear, the Norwegian paper references to Finnish studies by Hämet-Ahti. I don't have access to that book but in the Norwegian papers reference list I found this:
Hämet-Ahti, L., Palmen, A., Alanko, P. & Tigerstedt, P.M.A. 1992. – Soumen puu- ja pensas-
kasvio – Dendrologian Seura – Denddroloska Sällskapet r.y., Helsinki, 373 s.

I quoted some from the Norwegian paper, maybe insufficient as a reference but interesting at least:
(Rosa 'Frankfurt' mis-
appl?, før 1809?, syn.: Rosa gallica
'Splendens' Foerster 1911, Rosa gal-
lica 'Grandifl ora' Regel & Kesselring,
'Valamonruusu' i Finland).
Forekomstene i Norge dan-
ner en fortsettelse av utbredelsen i Sverige, Finland og etter det vi forstår, av vestlige
Russland (Hämet-Ahti et al 1992; Gustavsson 2008). Den er lett å kjenne på at blom-
stene vanligvis bare har 8-10 kronblad og er klart, nesten rent røde før de blåner noe
mot slutten. Dessuten er blomsterbunnen og nypen svært karakteristisk med sin tyde-
lige hals.
Vi har ikke funnet noe som tyder på at den ble dyrket i Frankfurt i Tyskland
på 1500-tallet. Sporene bakover i historien fører derimot til tsarens botaniske hage i
St. Petersburg (Alanko et al 1997; Joy 2006), der Rosa gallica 'Grandifl ora' i katalogen
til Regel & Kesselring (ca. 1900) er bestemt til Rosa gallica 'Splendens'/'Frankfurt'
( Jäger 1936; Lindström 2007). Samme rose er kjent i USA som 'Alika' (Hämet-Ahti
et al. 1992). 'Alika' ble kjøpt hos Regel & Kesselring og innført til Nord-Amerika i
1906 ( Joy 2006). Den tidligste illustrasjonen vi har kommet over som kan bestemmes
noenlunde sikkert, er tab. 107 hos Jacquin 1809. Den viser en plante fra botanisk hage
i Wien, der den i følge Jacquin blomstret rikt. Den svarer meget godt til en rose med
enkle eller doble blomster beskrevet som R. turbinata av Crépin (1869-1880) basert
på planter han fant viltvoksende så vel som dyrket – også i botanisk hage – i Wien.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 2 NOV 17 by jedmar
Maybe one of our Finnish members has "Suomen puu- ja pensas-kasvio" by Leene Hämet-Ahti et al. and can look up and post the original text. The Norwegian text states:

The occurrences in Norway form a continuation of the spread in Sweden, Finland and, according to what we understand, of Western Russia (Hämet-Ahti et al 1992; Gustavsson 2008). It is easy to recognize as the flowers usually only have 8-10 petals and are clear, almost pure red before they bleed slightly towards the end. In addition, the flower bottom and the nip are very distinctive with their distinctive neck.
We have not found anything that indicates that it was grown in Frankfurt, Germany in the 1500s. However, the traces back in history lead to the Tsar Botanical Garden St. Petersburg (Alanko et al 1997; Joy 2006), the Rosa Gallica 'Grandiflora' in the Regel & Kesselring catalog (about 1900) is intended for Rosa Gallica
'Splendens' / 'Frankfurt' (Jäger 1936; Lindström 2007). The same rose is known in the United States as 'Alika' (Hämet-Ahti et al. 1992). 'Alika' was purchased from Regel & Kesselring and introduced to North America in 1906 (Joy 2006). The earliest illustration we've come across that can be determined fairly certainly is tab. 107 at Jacquin 1809. It shows a plant from the botanical garden of Vienna, which, according to Jacquin, flourished richly. It corresponds very well to a rose of simple or double flowers described as R. turbinata of Crépin (1869-1880) based on plants he found sprawling as well as grown - also in the botanical garden - in Vienna.

This gives us some more leads to follow-up. The link to the Regel catalogue is quite promising. Best would be to have 'Alika' and ''Rosa gallica splendens' resp. "Valamonruusu" growing side by side to compare. According to our records this seems to be only the case in the Hana Festa park in Japan and Rosenhang Karben in Germany, not in private collections.
most recent 8 APR 17 SHOW ALL
Initial post 7 FEB 12 by DonaldQuRoses
I refuse to buy a rose named Ketchup and Mustard! Please please please - roses are elegant and should be named that way. It looks like a beautiful rose, but with that name all I can see is a hot dog --- and I'm a VEGETARIAN! ;)
Reply #1 of 26 posted 7 FEB 12 by Kim Rupert
But, might not those condiments also be appropriate for a veggie burger? As for "elegance" in rose names, you're forgetting ones such as "Happy Butt" , "Sweet Revenge" and "Crazy Dottie". Nothing "elegant" about those and there are many, many more.
Reply #2 of 26 posted 7 FEB 12 by DonaldQuRoses
Many many wrongs don't make a right! ;)
Reply #3 of 26 posted 7 FEB 12 by Kim Rupert
"Tofu" included! LOL!
Reply #4 of 26 posted 8 FEB 12 by Aurelija D.
That's what happens, when the rose naming is done before the lunch. :)

I am with DonaldQuRoses on this one though, it is a very no-awe inspiring rose name.
Reply #5 of 26 posted 8 FEB 12 by Jay-Jay
Piccalilly....oh I'm sorry.... Piccadilly is in the parentage too!
(and Peace off course!)
Reply #6 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Seil
I don't let the names bother me too much any more. If the rose is lovely I don't really care what the breeder decided to name it. There are too many really gorgeous roses that are named after politicians and so called "stars" that, except for their names, I want. So I just buy what I like and to heck with the names. Unless you exhibit and need to have the correct "Approved Exhibition Name" (AEN) if you find a rose you really love with a name you hate just buy the rose and pick your own name for it! Whose gonna know or care?
Reply #7 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Kim Rupert
I've honestly bought many over the years simply due to the name. At the "entrance" to my old desert garden, as it bordered a private golf course in a planned community, I planted Buck's "Hi Neighbor" as the greeting to the garden, though I honestly don't like the rose. I planted Hiroshima's Children next to Pearl Harbor. All of the "booze" inspired were planted together in "the bar". Tequilla Sunrise, Champagne Cocktail, Courvoisier and a number of others named for either alcohol or drinks were "tended" there.

I grew many which were named for notable, strong, intelligent women, Marian Anderson,
Madame Chiang Kai-shek and others, held their court together. Though I've never grown it, The Wife of Bath is probably one I should as Bath's Wife was a formidable woman for her time!

The names don't have to be elegant to have meaning. Personally, I think the British have the best idea from a marketing standpoint. Name them for special occasions, making them the perfect gift for each one. I would add support for "catchy" names such as Eyes for You as it's actually lyrical, "I only have eyes, for you..." I think women's names are a sure bet to make them marketable, too. How many times have you at least been tempted to buy a rose (or other plant) to honor someone because it was their name? Believe me, it can be a very emotional moment! I planted a fuchsia in a friend's garden I'd found, which bore her name. She called to tell me how much she loved it. I asked if she'd red the tag. She returned, exclaiming, "it's MY name!" The next time I saw them, her husband came up to me, wrapped his arm around my shoulder, looked me in the eye and said, "Ya made my girl cry!" I apologized and asked if that was a good thing. He winked and said, "Thanks!" I thought it very sweet after forty years of marriage.

Why must only minis get the catchy, "cutsie" names? At least Ketchup and Mustard FITS the coloring of the rose and doesn't gag me like names such as "Angel Face". Argh!
Reply #8 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Seil
Oh, I too have bought my share strictly because of the name. At one time I had one for each member of my family except my brother Alan. He was very disappointed because we just couldn't find any rose named Alan.

And I confess I like the cutsie names! I bought Tattooed Lady because the name just tickled me and I don't even have a tattoo. Once I got the rose I found the name really does fit the look of the rose too. I love the name "White Pearl in Red Dragon's Mouth" and wish I could grow it here. "Tipsy Imperial Concubine" Is another great one.

For my money I hope breeders don't all decide to get all serious and only use "elegant" names. I hope they continue to come up with fun and sometimes intriguing names. My brother dubbed one of my seedlings out of What a Peach, "Son of a Peach" and I like it, lol!
Reply #9 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Kim Rupert
Tom Carruth told the story of a peach colored moss mini he created some years ago. The naming was a collaborative effort in the office. One of the marketing people suggested the name they went with, Peach Fuzz, and then from then on, he checked to see how "his rose" was doing. I agree with you about cute names. I've been accused of using "quirky" names. Perhaps. I'm still looking for just the right seedling to name, "Tequilla Mockingbird"!
Reply #10 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Seil
Lol, I love it, Kim! I think it would need to be yellow and orange stripes myself.

I'll bet that naming that rose Peach Fuzz gave that worker the feeling he had a vested interest in the rose so he wanted to keep track of it.
Reply #11 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Kim Rupert
I'm sure of it. Can you imagine how exciting it was for him to go home and tell his family HE named their new rose, then share such a clever name with them?

I love the stories behind them such as the ones for Just Joey and Hi. They're cute and real. I really must retaliate for Angel Face and name one "Kissie Face"!
Reply #12 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Jay-Jay
We grow Warm Wishes at our front door; not for the name, (that's a bonus) but for the colour.
But my wifes taste altered and this autumn we'll plant there brighter and smaller roses: Tintinara.
We'll keep the W.W. and plant them elsewhere in the garden.
Reply #13 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Aurelija D.
Hm I normally do not buy a rose because of the name, although some are a nice bonus (like Jude the Obscure, Distant Drums, A Whiter Shade of Pale or Alchemist).

I wish there was more naming based on a literature/movie characters than the real people. To give a well know example, a name Princess Leia would say more than a name Carrie Fisher, an actress who played her in the SW saga, or Arwen Evenstar would say more than Liv Tyler, who played her in LoTR.

I have a fair share of the obligatory real "ladies" in the garden, and most of them leave me rather cold and uninterested when I Google up who their were.

I am not all that fond of the "Captain Obvious is obvious" names either, like Pink Beauty, Pink Angel, Pink Cover, etc. There is zero imagination and poetry in that. Could as well be named a Pink Zombie (or Pink Zombina, to follow a generic femininity of the rose names). x)
Reply #14 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Kim Rupert
Agreed, but naming a rose for a "celebrity" is a two edged sword. You'll have those who will buy it FOR the connection and many who won't buy it BECAUSE of it. Naming them for politicians, particularly here in the US is now certain death for a rose in most cases. Austin was very wise to choose Shakespeare to name some of his earlier roses for, but even those can have negative connotations. You'd have to be very careful to obtain permission (often with financial considerations involved) to use modern fictional character names. Not that you'd want to, but imagine what it might cost for permission to call a rose "Shrek"!

Ironically, it's the "zombie" type names you dislike which sell best, at least in this country. They have no negative associations with people or behaviors, are easily remembered, and possess enough of a positive and descriptive element to remain 'commercial' for decades without any special social or political knowledge of a particular time required to understand their names. Warren Millington, an Australian breeder, has a real knack for coming up with amusing, entertaining, descriptive, memorable names. You should check his out. I think you'd enjoy them.
Reply #15 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Aurelija D.
Hehe Natural Blonde and Social Butterfly are definitely names to remember. :)

Regarding the naming though, the copyright issue is rather complicated. In general you cannot copyright the names (imagine a hassle if someone called their child Shrek, and if then someone wanted to call a rose after mister Shrek Smith). There are fine lines with it of course and the various institutional demands, and in general it is less stressful not to pick the obvious unique naming. However, the trick is to pick the less obvious cultural references, like for example a common phrase "At least we don't sparkle" is a direct reference to the movie saga Twilight, however you cannot pin a copyright to this kind of cultural reference, because it is too generic, although identifiable phrase. :)

Said that, my generation probably will be garden marketing viable only in a few decades, so I am rather curious how that will change the generic naming trends. :)
Reply #16 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Kim Rupert
Those are funny! A few years ago, J&P introduced two climbers, High Society and Social Climber. Of course, I liked the second one a lot better, both for size, color, health and definitely the name! Ralph Moore named a striped seedling, Two Timer, and a mutual friend went absolutely ballistic as her ex husband was one!

In 1927 there was a HT named, with permission, for the industrialist, Henry Ford. Twenty-seven years later, his permission was once again asked to name a rose for him, which he refused. The creator actually found another gentleman named Henry Ford and obtained HIS permission to name the rose for him, though the public never knew it.
Reply #17 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Aurelija D.
lol, Social Climber sounds like a perfect name for a rose that tends to escape to the neighbors garden, you know, to socialize (and steal their sunlight). :)
Reply #18 of 26 posted 10 FEB 12 by Kim Rupert
Actually, that's more High Society around here. It's a much larger climber. Social Climber is quite happy in a 20" pot on a friend's patio, growing happily into her lattice covering. In the open ground, it's usually less than 10' high, making it perfect for the common wrought iron fencing in newer communities. It's healthy, vigorous, fairly heavily flowering in a nice color and large flowers. Pretty much the perfect climber for smaller areas which can't handle a barn eater.
Reply #19 of 26 posted 23 MAR 16 by Daniel Alm
The name Ketchup & Mustard doesn't bother me, but certain first ladies are not allowed in my garden because of their husbands' sins. I recently broke down and bought JACsegra, I feel terrible giving money to that institution's agenda, but I bought it end of the season discounted 50% off, so hopefully the money didn't get into their coffers. I refuse to call JACsegra by its exhibition name, totally creeps me out.
Reply #20 of 26 posted 23 MAR 16 by Kim Rupert
I understand your sentiments, but is that one really any more offensive than any of these? JACbush, AROnance, JACorbet, JACtanre, JACurnam, JACgray. None of these have ever, nor will ever, grow in my garden.
Reply #21 of 26 posted 23 MAR 16 by Daniel Alm
I find all of them equally offensive, but thankfully, the ones you listed are mediocre roses that are as odious as their namesakes. JACsegra is an excellent rose by all accounts and I like the color too. It's a shame I can't find Karen Blixen sold anywhere, because I'd rather have bought that as a lesser evil.
Reply #22 of 26 posted 23 MAR 16 by Jay-Jay
Karen Blixen is a rather nice rose in my opinion, but doesn't perform that well.
Really good performers are Ingrid Bergman and Ambiente. Pumping out flowers all season long, in contrary to Karen Blixen. Parole is a very good-one too, with huge well formed flowers and as a bonus a very good scent!!!
Reply #23 of 26 posted 24 MAR 16 by Raynyk
It's almost a bit embarrasing but I'm a sucker for the romantic sound of the old french roses, Souvenir de la Malmaison, Madame Legras de St. Germain, Ghislaine de Feligonde, Belle Sans Flatterie etc. I usually don't read up on the history of the names, or the persons and places behind it as it's mostly a letdown.
But if I would have two equal roses and one of them is named Pink Sweetie and the other Souvenir de la Reine de Senteur I always go for the later one. A bit silly maybe and I'm not even frenchspeaking.
Reply #24 of 26 posted 7 APR 17 by a_carl76
I believe I found this rose being sold at a big box store here in Iowa in the bag with sawdust under the name of "Gold and Fire". Isn't it sad that I think this name is better. It isn't blooming yet but the description does seem to fit so I bought it to see if it really is. I also found that they are selling Tropical Lightening as Climbing Lightening. Unlike many other places, the bagged roses at this place are usually correctly labeled and I was willing to shell out the $3.99 to test it out.
Reply #25 of 26 posted 8 APR 17 by Nastarana
There are three historic daffodils from the 1820s, I believe, named 'Butter and Eggs', 'Eggs and Bacon' and 'Codlins and Cream'. So, K&M may someday seem merely quaint--those silly early 21stC Americans you know--, and the name is at least a welcome change from the Romance Novel Soft Core Porn school of marketing. The rose seems very handsome, but I wonder how it might perform in a cold climate. Can anyone compare it with 'Kleopatra', which I think has similar coloring?
Reply #26 of 26 posted 8 APR 17 by Andrew from Dolton
Dianthus 'Sops in Wine' is older still.
© 2024