HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 12 MAY SHOW ALL
Initial post 23 AUG 08 by Tearose
There is actually no evidence that Jaune Desprez was the seed parent of GdD. Jacotot did not record the parentage, but apparently told his family that the seed parent was an unnamed tea. I'm not sure where the idea that Jaune Desprez was the seed parent came from, but was much later .
Reply #1 of 8 posted 23 AUG 08 by Cass
The idea came from Brent Dickerson's The Old Rose Advisor.
Reply #2 of 8 posted 23 AUG 08 by Tearose
Brent got it elsewhere. I've discussed it with him, and he agreed with me that it's an assumption that's been passed on as if it was truth. I think either Beales or Thomas originally started calling it a Noisette based on this belief, but I don't know for sure where they got the idea. I think Rosenlexicon has it with a "?", but I haven't found an earlier source yet that Jager would have gotten it from.
Reply #3 of 8 posted 23 AUG 08 by Patricia Routley
What about Brent's reference from The Horticulturist, 1846-1875
“Certainly the colour, an ochraceous yellow, the size, as large as ‘Jaune Desprez’, and the Tea scent, make it a great acquisition.” (HstX:398)
Reply #4 of 8 posted 23 AUG 08 by jedmar
This seems to be the only clue to the 'Jaune Desprez' analogy. In the reference from "Flore des Serres" of 1854, which cites an earlier article by Jacotot himself, both the bloom form and the foliage is said to be that of SdM. Jacotot derives the tea classification from the reflexing of the sepals (lorsque le bouton veut s'ouvrir, elles se retournent fortement sur l'ovaire). Van Houtte first thought it was a Bourbon. Generally in that era the seed parent was known, but not the pollen parent. If I read the references correctly, the "fact" that SdM was the pollen parent was reported later by the Jacotot family as a "family tradition". It would have made more sense to list GdJ as a seedling of SdM. Interesting is the breeding year (1850, not 1853)!
Reply #5 of 8 posted 24 AUG 08 by Tearose
It would make more sense as the seed parent, but my SdlM has never produced so much as a hip, so I've never doubted the pollen parent story. My personal feeling is that Jacotot, like many other rose lovers, did some experimenting, grew some seed he collected from roses in the nursery, and one was likely the unnamed yellow tea. I have quite a few unnamed roses, that are not worthy of introduction, but I keep them for my own pleasure, since I produced them. I even have one that I think might be useful as a seed parent, if pollinated by the right rose. I think that's similar to how GdD came about. After all, it was the only rose he ever introduced.

I agree with Patricia that the Jaune Desprez reference may have planted the idea in someone's mind that it was the parent. I'd love to know who first stated that it was the parent. I'll have to check my references to see which is the earliest I have.
Reply #6 of 8 posted 24 AUG 08 by jedmar
If we accept that SdM is the pollen parent, can we speculate which "yellow Tea" Jacotot might have crossed it with? Was he trying to achieve a yellow Tea with the form of SdM's blooms? Was the vigour and climbing tendencies of GdD a chance by-product? Assuming that he would not have called a Noisette a Tea, there were not so many yellow Teas at the time which could have been attractive as a crossing partner for SdM:
Flavescens (Park's Yellow), Hymenée, Thé jaunâtre, Narcisse, Reine Victoria, Devoniensis, Princess Adelaide, Solfatare (sold initially as a yellow tea).
The climbing characteristic must have come from one of these. Except for its climbing sport almost 50 years later, there are only few climbing direct descendants of SdM, and those have all seed parents which carry the climbing gene. So, Devoniensis and Solfatare? Were the others climbers?
Reply #7 of 8 posted 3 NOV 14 by CybeRose
I don't trust family traditions in such matters. In an article in American Gardening 19: 392 (May 21, 1898) the author reported that 'Harison's Yellow' was a seedling of 'Persian Yellow'; "Our knowledge of its origin came from Miss Harison, the grand-daughter of the originator, and who for many years and until recently, resided in Clinton Place, New York, and is now living at their old country home on the St. Lawrence."

Of course, this origin is impossible because 'Harison's Yellow' was in commerce before 'Persian Yellow' reached the West.

I think it is useful to note that some contemporary writers regarded 'Mme Desprez' (Desprez 1831) as having Noisette in its parentage. 'Jaune Desprez' (Desprez 1830) may share parentage with the other. This could explain the Noisette-like characters in 'Gloire de Dijon'. Folks back then were not clear on the concept of recessive characteristics, beyond some vague notion of atavism.

'Souv. de la Malmaison' is capable of bearing seed. 'Lucy H. Nicolas' (Nicolas) is one example.

If 'Jaune Desprez' or some other yellowish Noisette (Smith's Yellow?) was the pollen parent of 'Mme Desprez', even a self-seedling of 'Malmaison' might show some yellow, along with the climbing habit that was mostly latent in 'Mme Desprez' and 'Malmaison'.

Or if the unknown pollen parent of 'Malmaison' happened to be a white or yellowish tea, the same would be true.

I think it would be interesting to back cross 'Gloire de Dijon' (as pollen parent) with 'Souv. de la Malmaison'.
Reply #8 of 8 posted 12 MAY by Hamanasu
The description in GST's Rose Book says it's SdlM x "a vigorous tea rose", without pinpointing Desprez a Fleurs Jaunes. So it doesn't look like he's the culprit (or not to the extent of publicly recording that supposition, if he ever made it).
most recent 9 SEP 21 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 9 SEP 21 by Tearose
The plant in the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden was obtained from the rosarium in Dortmund, Germany. I don’t know if that helps with confirming its identity. The color and foliage are that same as Dick Koster, and my assumption is that it is a sport of that variety.
most recent 23 JUN 21 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 23 JUN 21 by Tearose
This rose was named in honor of the 150th anniversary of the gold discovery at Sutter's Mill in Coloma, Calif. The State Park there had a plant, but it died, so a replacement was recently given to the park, propagated from the one at the Heritage Rose Garden in San Jose.
most recent 14 MAY 21 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 14 MAY 21 by Tearose
This name appears to apply to two spinosissima roses. There's the mottled light pink, and there one with a deeper pink top side and white reverse. Looking at the photos, there are about half of each.
© 2023