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Gregg Lowery 
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I have been investigating a possible identity for this beautiful found rose, and would be interested to hear from others what you think.
Curtis' Beauties of the Rose, reprinted by Sweetbriar Press with a listing of American nurseries who offered the roses Curtis illustrated in the mid-to-late 1800s, illustrates a number of roses of this type—very double, globular-formed blooms of rich shades of crimson and cherry red, often with pale reverses.
One of these has not been rediscovered, though it was offered by the California Nursery Co. during the height of the Gold Rush when many roses were planted in the foothills towns. The rose I'm referring to is 'Robin Hood' from Jean Laffay, prior to 1848. This is just the beginning of a search for more information, and the combing of resources. For those who love found roses, this is what it's all about!
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Does it bloom in clusters? How high and wide? HelpMeFind needs more photos of characteristics. Could “Copperopolis Bar” be a bourbon?
I note that “Copperopolis Bar” is said to be similar to “Tylor Carll” but a different colour. However there is a comment in “Tylor Carll” from Fred Boutin who says “I have grown and observed the "Tylor Carll" rose for 30 years and have noticed all the variations and mixes in colors from light red to dark red to black with an array of bluish violets and purples”.
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Thanks Patricia, and thanks to everyone for your patience. The last number of comments I've made on roses in HMF have been slow to receive reactions. I wasn't prepared to hear back so soon! Patricia, I have not yet had time to do photos of the plant parts, and will do so in the Spring and post them here. Copperopolis does bloom with several buds is a cluster, each opening in succession so that it's display is prolonged. The color varies considerably in our climate, so I would not be surprised by Fred Boutin comparing two roses that are both perhaps so variable in coloring. In our garden it ranges from crimson, the sort of color we see in modern roses like Oklahoma, to a rich cool red, but pink in comparison to such dark reds. I have continued to study other possibilities including Baronne Hallez, another of the very double globular reds introduced into California in the mid 19th century. Hallez does not exhibit a pale reverse to the petals in Curtis' illustration. Copperopolis has been a willing grower, but not a large plant for me after three years of growing. Curtis says Hallez is 'very robust.' I don't put a lot of stock in size descriptions, but rather assume that until a foundling can be budded onto a suitable rootstock, we don't really know if it is vigorous or not. I'll be back with photos of Copperopolis' parts in the Spring. -Gregg
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#2 of 9 posted
8 OCT by
Lee H.Reply
#3 of 9 posted
8 OCT by
Lee H.
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'Copperopolis Bar' may be the clunkiest name ever given to a rose. Mark Twain would have called it 'The Celebrated Red Rose of Calaveras County' ;-)
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#4 of 9 posted
9 OCT by
Johno
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The photo immediately reminded me of a HP that use to grow in the garden: Victor Hugo (Schwartz, 1884). Bloom colour in the description doesn't worry me (when does dark pink become red?), but petal count for Victor Hugo may not be enough to match. I note Victor Hugo is listed in The Friends of Vintage Roses Collection so it may be worth comparing.
Unfortunately, it will be difficult to show the rose is Robin Hood based on an image from a C19 text
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Hi Johno!
We grew Victor Hugo for a number of years, but ultimately lost it. It was literally scooped out of the ground and washed to sea during a fierce winter storm that tore an eight by eight foot gorge that was carved on one edge of the garden. I'm still trying to locate cuttings of it.
Copperopolis is somewhat smaller in bloom than VH, as I recall it. But it is the form that is so distinctive. It has what you might call the 'Ranunculus' form, very globular, not just in the bud stage but through the life of the bloom. It is the characteristic that I find most people are struck by. with petal edges that don't just curve downward but roll neatly under the petal.
I don't expect to be able to make a certain identification of this found beauty, but I cannot resist comparing it to reasonably possibilities (like having documented cataloguing that shows it was imported into the area where it was found a hundred or more years later.) And in following that trail, I find this discussion of that 'group' of HPs that were in demand and well loved at the time. To suggest that Copperolis may be among that group, is to provide a touchstone plant that survives, which provides a living example of the group. -Gregg
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#5 of 9 posted
11 DEC by
ThomasR
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Francia Thauvin's website shows pictures of some rare Hybrid Perpetuals, often there is just one picture, but I was wondering if this could help?
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Thank you, Thomas!
I had not hear of her nursery and the website is superb! I will spend some time on it.
Cheers, Gregg
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#9 of 9 posted
14 DEC by
ThomasR
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Hello,
This is Gregg Lowery, curator of the rose collection of The Friends of Vintage Roses.
Our collection may be able to supply some of the roses you are trying to locate.
We would also be interested in discussing with you the possibility of being one of our associate curators.
Please feel free to contact me and to see what we're doing on our website; thefriendsofvintageroses.org
email me at curator@thefriendsofvintageroses.org
Thank you!
Gregg Lowery
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Hi Paul, sorry to inject a request here but I've been trying for some time to contact you.
The Friends of Vintage Roses are working on A Time Capsule of Roses which includes your Dakota Redwing.
Would you be willing to share a photo to be included in our project?
I'll be happy to send more information.
Thank you!
Gregg Lowery
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Hi Gregg.
Please email me at: trospero "at" gmail "dot" com
Thanks, I look forward to hearing from you.
Paul
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Tina Marie was not discovered by Phillip Robinson. We received this at Vintage Gardens from the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden; I think Mel Hulse can shed light on its origin.
Gregg Lowery
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Tina Marie was one of the roses originally planted in the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden. Unfortunately, I no longer have a reference as to where we got it beyond it having been grown for the Heritage by Tom Liggett. As Tom is a great fan of Grandmother's Hat with a several in his home garden and as Grandmother's.Hat frequently puts out color sports, It is possible the he discovered it.
Mel Hulse
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Tom Liggett has confirmed that he discovered and named Tina Marie. Please correct the HMF listing accordingly. It was not discovered by Gregg Lowery and Phillip Robinson, and Gregg does not claim that it was his discovery in the comments above. Thanks!
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Hello Anita,
Corrected. I have used the same discovery date, 1998, as we had previously.
I wonder if we should merge ‘Tina Marie’ with ‘Larry Daniels’ 1995. Both are sports of ‘Grandmother’s Hat’ and both were discovered by Tom Liggett. It seems the sport is quite variable in colour.
My regards.
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Thanks Patricia. No, they are distinct. Larry Daniels is different in color. Grandmother's Hat sports readily - I have seen a pale colored version in a neighbor's garden.
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OK. I read the Members Comments in both roses’ pages and got the impression that they are not distinct. Jill seemed to think they were probably the same. There seems to be variability in the colour in the photos.
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In our garden, 'Tina Marie' and 'Larry Daniels' were a quite different color tone.
L.D. only once produced a white bloom, and NEVER produced multiple shades on a bloom, which 'Tina Marie' does FREQUENTLY. I think it would be a mistake to equate them.
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