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Quinto Mansuino patented several roses in France and Spain without however giving them a name. How can these missing roses be loaded in HMF? Patent number? Mansuino A, B, C ...? Mansuino 1,2,3 ..? Thank you
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#1 of 1 posted
5 JAN 23 by
 jedmar
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Do you have a patent text? There must be a name or code associated with the patent number.
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What is the justification for referring to varieties of the Mansuiniane strain as hybrid Banksiae? After all this strain was the result of a complex and lengthy programme of breeding in which Banksian roses were only one element. 'Purezza' is another matter - the Banksian heredity is evident. But the genetic make-up of those following 'Generosa' is only known in general terms, that is we know the elements of the programme rather than constituents of any particular variety. Bartolomeo Embriaco does not refer to his roses as hybrid Banksiae but as hybrid Mansuiniane because no one knows the Banksian input of any particular Mansuino variety.
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#1 of 6 posted
13 OCT 13 by
Cà Berta
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In 1953 Ada Mansuino published a long paper in Rivista della ortoflorofrutticoltura italiana (Ibridi di Rosa banksiae ottenuti a Sanremo, pp. 467- 474) where she reports the lengthy work of Mansuino to hybridize R. Banksiae. That work was well summarized in a paper published in the same magazine in 1961 that clearly points the prominent role of R. banksiae in the origin of the miniature roses named Mansuiniane “…. Recentemente Mansuino ha ottenuto a Sanremo molte rose “Miniatura” dagli ibridi F2 degli incroci R. chinensis minima “Tom Thumb” x R. banksiae lutescens e reciproci; ..”
It is hard to believe that the huge R. banksiae can give dwarf progeny but ... a few seeds of R banksiae lutescens (selfpollinated I imagine) I got in Cavriglia, in my garden gave dwarf roses (all of them). Probably this rose is heterozygote and I suspect that genomic imprinting may play a part as well!
PS Tom Thumb in Roseto Botanico "Carla Fineschi" in Cavriglia is located VERY far away from R. banksiae lutescens.
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#2 of 6 posted
13 OCT 13 by
jedmar
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The term "hybrid mansuiniae" is not really recognized outside of Italy. See e.g. the listing of 'Generosa' on "Modern Roses", where it is listed as an HT. Hybrid banksia comes closest to reality.
There are other classes which are not "accepted", such as Provence roses which have in the 19th century all been subsumed under Centifolias, although they may be Centifolia-Gallica or Centifolia-Damask hybrids, or Rosa Belgica, which has been included under Damask roses, although early authors state the differences.
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My point is this: Mansuino used a lot of elements in his mix. The term Hybrid Banksiae seems to me to imply that the given variety definitely has R. Banksiae as a constituent, something that we don't know. Ada Mansuino's fascinating article is exclusively about experiments with Banksian roses, so, of course my doubts do not apply to the results of that work.
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#4 of 6 posted
14 OCT 13 by
Cà Berta
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I see the point and I agree that it is not evident the biunivocity (some banksiae hybrids by Mansuino are miniature does not mean that all Mansuino’s miniatures are bankiae hybrids). Also if this biunivocity existed, as you said the mix of species might be so complex that it would be unfair to prize only the banksian part. In the past, in a similar situation, a new word was invented. I mean the roses bred by Pernet-Ducher that, for sure, had in their blood as “deus ex machina” Rosa foetida persiana but still they are not classified as Rosa foetida persiana’s hybrids. In fact they are classified as Pernetiana. This is probably the reason that let invent the word Mansuiniana. Why not use it?
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Exactly! That's why Embriaco, for example, prefers to call his roses "Hybrid Mansuinianae", a term used also by Fineschi.
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#6 of 6 posted
23 OCT 13 by
Cà Berta
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This is a contribution to the introduction of the word MANSUINIANE
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Your list omits the HT Super Candy (Supercandy?) which won a Certificate of Merit at Monza in 1967 in the Rose of the Year category as well as winning the Most Beautiful Italian Rose category. (The name Super Candy is obviously a tribute to the sponsors of the Monza trials, the Fumagalli family that own the domestic appliance company Candy.)
It is perhaps worth pointing out that with Mansuino dates are particularly deceptive. This variety was probably raised as much as 10 or more years before, since by 1967 Mansuino had ceased working with HTs.
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#1 of 4 posted
24 SEP 13 by
jedmar
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Is there a source where we can look up Monza winners earlier than 1997?
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The entire series of the AIR yearbook (Annuario della Rosa) up to about 2010 is at the Biblioteca Comunale di Monza and can be consulted there. I have a complete list of the Italian-bred roses awarded at Monza but these were rarely the winners of the major categories.
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#3 of 4 posted
29 SEP 13 by
Cà Berta
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This rose is quoted in Encyclopedia of Rose Science
Supercandy
Gr, 1967; Mansuino; (Cavriglia)
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That's right, but I am doubtful about the date, after all the rose won at Monza that year so must have been the product of a hybridisation of at least a few years earlier. I suspect that it was very much earlier.
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American Rose Annual (1960)
Breeding Miniatures in San Remo
Quinto Mansuino
San Remo, Italy
San Remo, Italy
When I read the very interesting contribution in the 1957 Rose Annual "I Breed Miniatures" by Ralph S. Moore, I had a feeling of pleasant surprise from the analogy I perceived between Mr. Moore's research work and mine: a work we both undertook twenty years ago for the origination of a new strain of roses.
The first attempt was made using Tom Thumb as seed parent and a seedling of mine (R. centifolia x unnamed HT) as pollen parent; the cross gave seedlings of intermediate characters.
I had more interesting results from the cross R. chinensis minima (Tom Thumb var.) x R. banksiae lutescens and its reciprocal. The series of hybrids obtained varies from the dwarf ones of about eight inches to the big climbing ones; some thornless, all having good ornamental foliage. The blooms are white, in corymb, long lasting and very decorative.
A climbing plant which seemed to have no everblooming habit has now improved giving a profusion of sweetly scented double flowers which, from December till July, form a candid cascade. During the August-November period the luxuriant glossy foliage compensate for the lack of flowers.
By working again with the R. centifolia I obtain Miniature varieties which, like the old May rose, have a tendency to propagate by root-shoot and can therefore be easily multiplicated by cuttings, maintaining their original height of 4-6 inches. Some hybrids of wonderful color which I obtained from crosses between the Hybrid Teas and the R. foetida and foetida bicolor are also successfully combined with my Miniatures. I have the best results regarding the flower shape and the cut qualities using the true Teas and Hybrid Teas of the Ophelia offspring. All this work of inter-specie crosses was always made with a clear view of the final result—new types of miniature and middle-sized roses having these characteristics: vigorous everblooming plants performing well outdoors and under glass. Their stems shall be in harmonious relation with the bloom they support singly. The flowers, 1-2 inches when open, must have good shape, long lasting qualities, in a great color range, ideal for cutting and forcing. With this goal in mind, inspired by every step in the right direction, I augmented the crosses little by little in order to get a valuable number of seeds. Product of about 18,000 crosses was last October's sowing of 120,000 seeds of which 80,000 were for these characteristics. Growing seedlings in a large scale is the way to materialize the dreams of the long years of work, during which so many genetic and cultivation difficulties have been solved and tens of thousands of crosses carried out. The mild Riviera climate allows outdoor sowing; only three or four times during the past twenty years was the use of straw shelters necessary. The seedlings don't need transplanting and develop where they have been sown. The range of multicolored varieties I see now in the borders represent the blending of characters chiefly new because they came from botanic species. These types, living evidence that the goal I had in mind was well worth the trouble, are above all an enticement to the future ameliorations for the joy of all who love the roses.
I think these experiences of mine can be shared beyond the Atlantic by my work-fellows whom, in spite of the material distance, I have been brought near by common thoughts and realizations.
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