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'Ariana d'Algier' rose Reviews & Comments
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If the parentage is correct, wouldn't that make Complicata a (seemingly fertile) triploid, with A, C and D septets?
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Has this rose been genetically tested?
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#1 of 4 posted
14 JUN 20 by
 jedmar
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There is an article "Rosa Complicata" in Curtis's Botanical Magazine, January 14, 2004, by Barbara Jellett, Maurice Jay and Olivier Raymond, which seems to include DNA test results. Unfortunately this article is not freely accessible.
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Thanks Jedmar.
The RHS Encyclopedia of Roses says it was genetically tested and it is a canina hybrid.
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#3 of 4 posted
14 JUN 20 by
jedmar
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I think that statement of RHS is too simplistic: If you look at the 2017 reference which is based on the Jellett et al article. 'Complicata' is closer to R. gallica than to R. canina. Unfortunately, I haven't seen the original article.
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Thanks, yes I see. Suzanne Verrier says gallica x macrantha hybrid but canina and setigera have been suggested. It always reminds me a lot of Rosa canina.
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Not a rose to cut for an evening function, because it closes up for the night.
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I've searched my books and the earliest reference I can find is 1950. Strange....
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That's an interesting comment Patricia, none of my older books mention it at all. But how come the profile gives a date of being bred before 1800, there must be some reference that mentions it as being an old garden rose? Was it known by a different name? I can't believe such an attractive garden worthy plant wouldn't be mentioned in old literature or such a cross only occurred in modern times.
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#2 of 16 posted
28 NOV 17 by
Jay-Jay
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Could it be the Rosa gallica 'Stapelia Flora' or Rosier de Provins à Fleurs de Stapelie?
Found that-one in Redouté.
http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.60445
PS: I might have looked too much at the photo's of Hovman, they show darker (red instead of pink) flowers.
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I don't know who added the 'Ariana d'Algier' synonym. That might have given us a clue. I have searched my computer for the word, Ariana, and came up with nothing.
Jay-Jay - It is wonderful that you searched and responded. Taking a close look at the (female) pistil in Redoute painting of 'Stapela flora', it is rounded and seems very different from the raised pistil in my hips. Complicata's sepals also seem to be simpler and more entire than 'Stapelia flora'. I'll add some photos.
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#4 of 16 posted
29 NOV 17 by
Jay-Jay
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Found this in a Dutch Nursery: http://www.coppelmans.nl/Plant/rosa-ariana-d-algier
Maybe a Dutch contribution to HMF.
The text says, that it would be just the, or a Gallica rose.
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#5 of 16 posted
29 NOV 17 by
Jay-Jay
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And this: https://www.haveabc.dk/18/complicata---rosa-gallica-complicata---ariana-d%27algier
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#6 of 16 posted
29 NOV 17 by
Jay-Jay
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And this: https://www.groeninfo.com/plantengids/rosa-complicata
It is used as a synonym... but why???
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#7 of 16 posted
29 NOV 17 by
Jay-Jay
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Will take a look at Your photo's. And found another Swedish nursery that uses the synonym: http://floralinnea.se/complicata.html
Could You describe the (strong) fragrance?
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#8 of 16 posted
29 NOV 17 by
Jay-Jay
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In the references for this rose is stated that in this book (http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=66.75) is written, that it is from the 20th century.
I apologize for the inconvenience of so many posts, but just one URL is allowed per post.
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Thank you Jay-Jay that was some interesting reading.
Other similar basic hybrids like 'Richardii', 'Pomifera Duplex' and 'Dupontii' all have some history behind them. Yet this rose does not seem to. I would like to know the reference that HMF uses to determine that 'Complicata' was raised before 1800.
Your point about Hovman is interesting, I noticed how dark pink the flowers were too, they appears very different from the 'Complicata' that I grow.
I will order 'Macrantha' this year which is a similar and also rather mysterious rose and compare the two together. The first time I saw 'Complicata' was glimpsed through a neighbour's narrow gateway in a steep Devon bank, the first flush of summer was over and these flat saucer shaped flowers shone out bright pink amongst the greenness.
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#11 of 16 posted
29 NOV 17 by
Jay-Jay
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I already guessed, that seeing such rose, would generate such poetic thoughts Andrew, so I asked a rose friend, too bring me one from Denmark, when he visits a rose-baptizing at Knud Pedersens Nursery.
By the way, two of his new Hybrid spinosissima's will be introduced at 26 juni 2018 during the 18e international rose-convention, and busses will drive from this convention to the nursery in Harlev. People, that are interested, but do not attend the convention are welcome too at the nursery Rosenposten.
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#13 of 16 posted
29 NOV 17 by
jedmar
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I have added the full texts on 'Complicata' from Joyaux, Testu and Krüssmann. I am still looking for a description said to have been made by Dr. Grenier of Rosa complicata in the 19th century.
The synonym 'Ariane d'Alger' seems to be from the book "Rosa/Rosae" of 2000, which I do not have. The synonyms maentioned in nursery catalogues are no proof - more and more nurseries base their descriptions on HMF!
If 'Complicata' is indeed a natural hybrid of R. gallica from the Jura hills, then the dating 1800 is definitely incorrect.
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#14 of 16 posted
29 NOV 17 by
Jay-Jay
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Thank You Jedmar.
Aa for that reference, the cross is Gallica x Canina and not Gallica x Macrantha.
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#15 of 16 posted
29 NOV 17 by
jedmar
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I have added a translation of an text in Italian by Roberto Viti in his Website "Museo Giardino della Rosa Antica", which, in turn is based on an article on Rosa Complicata which appeared in the "Curtis's Botanical Magazine" of May 1997.
This suggests that Rosa Complicata was supplied by the nursery Otto Froebel to Jules Gravereaux for his Rosarium L'Hay around 1900, and is indeed a species cross.
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Jedmar, you are a wonderful researcher and rosarian. I am so glad you share your expertise with us on HelpMeFind. Thank you.
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It's the sort of rose Gertrude Jekyll, Vita Sackville West, William Robinson or Margery Fish would have loved, I can't believe nothing was written about it by them.
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Thank you for all the pictures Patricia.
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