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'Papa Gontier' rose Reviews & Comments
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It seems that the Papa Gontier from Loubert isn't the real one. Mine has almost no thorns and the flowers aren't big. She has white at the center and no yellow. Strong fruity fragrance yes but especially the absence of thorns made me suspicious.
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#1 of 12 posted
12 MAY by
 HubertG
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The most recent photo here of 'Papa Gontier' (photo ID 421719, 25 Mar 2024) from The Friends of Vintage Roses in California appears to be the most convincing to me in that it seems to match the early photos in flower form and foliage - well it's only one leaflet but it seems to have that more rounded shape. The flower form also appears to match well with "Moser Pink Striped" which must almost certainly be 'Rainbow' or 'Improved Rainbow'.
The catalogue of The Friends of Vintage Roses lists the source of their 'Papa Gontier' as "Robinson; Korbel". I'd like to know more about that origin.
It would be good to see photos of the Loubert rose as well as more of 'The Friends of Vintage Roses' clone.
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I will post a picture of my PG. It's my first flower. Growth is vigorous with beautiful light green foliage. Buds are very high centered. I checked for the thorns today and mine has rather many on the base of the shoots but once you go higher they are rare.
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#3 of 12 posted
12 MAY by
HubertG
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Pereirelover, thank you! It's quite dark and seems to be the same colour as the Loubert rose that jedmar posted back in 2008. Didn't Peter Beales have a crimson rose he was offering as 'Papa Gontier'? Perhaps this is Loubert's source, or vice versa.
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I bought nearly all Teas and Tea Noisettes from Loubert last autumn. Because of our hot walled garden in Flanders in Belgium we needed heat resistant roses so Teas were our first choice after talking to Viru and Girija Viraraghavan. Also Di Durston gave me one of the last copies of the Tea rose book so I was armed with information. Now all roses are slowly opening and although Papa has those long typically China buds the color and size made me suspicious. The fragrance however is delicious and fruity. It's my intention to compare all Teas from Loubert with the ones I find here. We need to get exact information about the Teas as there are so many imposters. Teas are the future in big parts of Western Europe as we have so many hot dry summers the past 20 years. Winters are a laugh, this winter had three months without a single day of frost.
Current HT's and Floribundas aren't compatible with hot, dry summers. I put my faith in the Teas, Noisettes and Hybrids Gigantea
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HubertG, Phillip Robinson, once with Vintage Gardens, was responsible for the beautiful gardens of the Korbel Winery in California. From memory, I think he noted there were once many old roses at the winery.
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#6 of 12 posted
12 MAY by
HubertG
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Thanks, Patricia. I just looked at the Vintage Gardens online catalogue again and note two other roses with the Robinson/Korbel provenance, namely 'Niles Cochet' and 'Rainbow' and it's interesting that the descriptions for both 'Papa Gontier' and 'Rainbow' make a point of saying that they both drop their petals cleanly. Surely if a sport and its parent had been growing in the same garden and differed too greatly from what you'd expect it would have been detected.
I'm also now wondering if the Robinson/Korbel 'Papa Gontier' was a reversion on a bush of 'Rainbow' which was then propagated.
In any case it would be great to see more photos of the Vintage Gardens 'Papa Gontier' in time to compare with the old catalogue photos.
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#7 of 12 posted
12 MAY by
HubertG
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Pereirelover, I hope your new Tea collection ends up giving you a lot of enjoyment. I don't get frosts either, although I'm in a warmer climate than Belgium, and my way of thinking is why grow a rose that might be dormant for 3 months of the year when you can grow one that can potentially flower for 12 months.
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Thank you!
Yes, Teas have much more flower potential than HT's and other modern roses so why not exploit this? I've noticed that many Teas are much more cold hardy than on paper. A friend from Germany grows many in Bavaria with great success. My garden has mostly Bourbons, Teas and Tea Noisettes now but also HP's, ramblers and a selection of modern roses that can cope with the heat in summer. Modern roses can be very beautiful too but they lack that special bit of elegance, those silky shiny petals and often they lack fragrance.
Life is too short to grow bad performing roses and I followed my heart with the Teas. Safrano has opened today and yes he's a little cheeky brat but so beautiful and elegant and the patriarch of so many roses. When I saw him today I had tears in my eyes..
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I suspect that soil quality also matters. I think teas tend to prefer a porous soil into which they can easily extend their roots. In the northern parts of the USA, soils tend to be dense and damp, and roses like teas mostly do not thrive even though zone ratings say they should. SDLM is allegedly hardy to zone 5; the sickly miserable specimen I saw at a now long gone public garden in Ohio was enough to convince me not to try it in my yard.
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Agree !! SDLM does fantastic (more blooms than leaves) at Chicago Botanical Garden's loamy soil.
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Our garden in Flanders, Belgium has loamy soil enriched with composted farm manure. Two years ago I tried Malmaison for the very first time after having read negative comments for thirty years. It was a small bare root plant but my God she took a flying start. She made 8 new shoots directly from the base and in summer I had the first wonderful flowers. First small but last year and this year really big saucers. Fragrance is strong and clove like. She's always in bloom. In February I planted the climbing sport and Capitaine Dyell de Graville which is blooming at this moment. It shows you always need to try growing a rose yourself. Mine doesn't ball at all, not even during rain.
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I had similar results growing SDLM and her sports in California, hot summers and sandy soil. I consider the House of Malmaison to be quintessential desert roses, along with Austin's 'Evelyn'. Which is not to say that these roses can't also be grown in other places, but I found them especially suited to a hot and dry climate.
As for substituting Teas for HTs, there has been a lot of breeding with HTs to make them sellable in the North American market. Have you considered also trying the early Pernetianas? Some, 'Autumn' comes to mind, also the talisman family, are quite beautiful.
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I had heard that some of the old teas take a while to establish, and this appears to be one of them. Out of several varieties of roses, including a couple of Teas and several David Austins, this was the only type that died--one of two plants. The other remaining plant is the slowest grower of all the roses. Has AMAZING flowers, had a HUGE flower this January, albeit on a plant a foot tall! It has been planted about a year.
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Have you considered that it might grow faster if you debudded it until it had some structure? Some plants will put far too much energy into blooming when they are really too small to sustain it.
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Sorry didn't see this. I'm bad, I love the flowers so much, can't do it. The flowers are surprisingly large too, must take a lot out of the plant.
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#2 of 3 posted
9 FEB 21 by
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I have my doubts about whether the rose I grow as 'Papa Gontier' (from Ross Roses) really is the correct variety.
Mine never sets hips. Nabonnand (who bred this rose) used it as a seed parent for quite a few varieties, and as dedicated crosses too, not just as randomly gathered hips. Also, 'Lady Hillingdon' is supposed to have PapaG as its seed parent as well.
I remember reading quite an old reference in one of the rose annuals (1950's, 60's?) that it was a triploid, which is all good for my rose, but doesn't make a lot of sense if Nabonnands were actively pollinating it.
Also, the commonest characteristic in the early descriptions is its very long pointed bud. I can get longish buds in cooler months but no longer than other tea roses introduced at the time. During the warmer months the flowers actually come very small and are rather irregular in shape. The early descriptions of a very large flower just don't match. The few photos that exist don't really match either. It's hard to imagine the plant I grow being used as a florists' rose, even by late 19th century standards.
So I'm in two minds about whether this is correct. Does anyone else's 'Papa Gontier' set hips? Has anyone else had doubts about this rose before?
Another thing is that Papa Gontier's sport 'Rainbow' resembles the early descriptions (apart from the stripes of course) but doesn't resemble my rose, in flower form etc.
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The Tea book says "hip small, globular, yellow to orange". Its photo of the bud looks like yours.
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#2 of 14 posted
9 MAY 18 by
HubertG
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Thanks Margaret. It also says "only an occasional small, yellow hip matures, containing one or two seeds.".
There are seven offspring listed here with Papa Gontier as the seed parent, five of which are Nabonnand roses. I guess the Nabonnands were just very persistent in making crosses.
I also felt the shape of the rose didn't quite match the early photos, and some descriptions such as the 6cm long bud and 5" open flower ones seemed discordant.
Also the 1880's Nabonnand catalogues describe the centre as shaded yellow, which I can only see on one Papa Gontier photo here, and an old illustration, but never on mine (but which also seems to occur on 'Rainbow').
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If yours isn't especially prickly, you may have something else.
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#4 of 14 posted
10 MAY 18 by
HubertG
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Quite possibly, but mine does rather look like the other Australian Papa Gontiers here.
Does anyone who grows Papa Gontier get flowers up to 12-13cm across like the 'Journal des Roses' describes?
Or gets yellow in the base?
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Flower size is generally a bit 'how long is a piece of string'-ish with Teas. It depends on whether they are maiden plants, chopped back hard or lightly trimmed (or not trimmed at all); whether they open quickly in heat or slowly in cooler weather; whether grown under cover or the open air.
My 'Papa Gontier' has yellow petal nubs lightening to pale, creamy yellow in the eye zone.
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#6 of 14 posted
10 MAY 18 by
Rockhill
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The Tea Rose book gives the size of 'Papa Gontier' flowers as 10-15 cms and when conditions are favourable my very big, long-established bush does have flowers that are up to 15 cms in width. The buds are long and pointed and open quickly, the irregular just-double flowers are deep carmine-pink to paler pink, variable in shape and the stems are prickly. All the other 'Papa Gontier's that I have seen in Australia are the same. There are plenty of stamens and carpals and it looks like a very fertile rose. The fact that it only sets an occasional hip is probably due to genetic complications resulting from its being triploid. As for its being a florists’s rose, I have found if picked before they begin to open on the bush and put into a vase, they last very well as cut flowers. On HMF there are a few pale pink flowers that do not look much like what we call 'Papa Gontier' here. Overall, I think that the rose I grow as ‘Papa Gontier’ very well matches the early French descriptions and the rose recognised as being 'Papa Gontier' by the Friends of Nabonnand Roses.
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I think the Papa Gontier at Renmark was imported many decades ago by Alex Ross, and passed on to David Ruston. From there it was likely to have been the major source of budwood in Australia.
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#9 of 14 posted
10 MAY 18 by
HubertG
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Margaret, probably all the Papa Gontiers in Australia are from that same source (unless some old known specimen has been discovered here) but whether it is the correct variety or not was what I was questioning.
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#8 of 14 posted
10 MAY 18 by
HubertG
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Rockhill, thanks, that's encouraging to know someone does get large flowers.
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I would go along with 15cm for 'Papa Gontier'. That pen in my Oct 16, 2010 photo (158840) measures 13.5c. My plant does not grow very well, possibly being set back in its youth by a small shrub which smothered it.
I haven't really done any homework on these roses, but I would look ar two roses and their sports: I wonder about the difference between 'Improved Rainbow' and 'Mme Driout' and it may be the height.
'Papa Gontier' 1882
'Rainbow' 1889 (broad stripes')
'Improved Rainbow' c1893 (fine stripes)
'Reine Marie Henriette' (a climber)
'Mme. Driout' 1901 (A climber)
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#11 of 14 posted
11 MAY 18 by
Rockhill
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At one time, Patricia, my 'Papa Gontier' plant measured about 5 metres wide by 3 metres high but I had to cut it back before it took over that part of my garden. This is just part of what it looked like in its prime.
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How absolutely wonderful. Good gardener. Good conditions.
But I am thinking of the height of 'Papa Gontier's sport/s and I will respond further in 'Rainbow's file.
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#13 of 14 posted
4 SEP 18 by
HubertG
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I'm beginning to wonder if the rose sold in Australia as 'Papa Gontier' could in fact be 'Rose d'Evian'.
'Rose d'Evian has the same contrasting colours on the inner and reverse of the petals, large blooms, long buds, dense bushy growth.
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#14 of 14 posted
9 JAN 19 by
HubertG
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See 'Beauté Inconstante' comments for some recent opinions of mine concerning 'Papa Gontier', "Bermuda's Papa Gontier" and "Mrs Heggie's Red Tea".
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It is said that 'Papa Gontier' was named after "a notable nurseryman in Montrouge in France".
In fact it has been named after Louis Gontier's father.
Louis Gontier was an accountant and husband to G. Nabonnand's daughter.
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#1 of 6 posted
1 JAN 09 by
Darrell
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That's fascinating. Two different accounts. How did you discover that? Currently I'm doing some research on a rose, 'The Doctor.' One source states it was named after the hybridizer Dr. Nicolas, and another source claims it was named after longtime editor of American Rose Society J. Horace McFarland. Who's correct? Where might I be able to unravel the contradiction? What source or sources might help?
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Re the date of 'Papa Gontier'.
We have 8 refs which quote 1882, and 10 which quote 1883.
And then there is 1898 Chateau Eleonore reference which quotes 1878.
Does anybody know what date the Nabonnand Society are quoting?
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#3 of 6 posted
19 AUG 16 by
jedmar
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They are quoting 1883 1880, the latter with a reference to an article in the "Journal des Roses", April 1890. I will check the original article and revert.
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#5 of 6 posted
22 AUG 16 by
jedmar
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The article from 1890 states 'Papa Gontier' was commercialized in 1880; however, there are no references from that year (yet).
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Again - thank you for all your searching and work.
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