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'Paniculata' rose Reviews & Comments
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Initial post
19 DEC 21 by
 jedmar
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Crimson Ramblers in our garden (from two French nurseries) have rebloomed now in December, though only with semi-double blooms. Seems unusual, so maybe the clone in France is incorrect. Any experience with rebloom of this rose?
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I have three plants from two sources and I’ve never seen any rebloom. However they are all on distant fences so can’t guarantee that, but I will watch.
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Reply
#2 of 3 posted
26 DEC 21 by
Jay-Jay
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Some of our (climbing) roses re-bloom later in the year with less petals and smaller flowers. As for instance Tiffany Cl.
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There are occasionally a few flowers on Michael Walsh's ramblers in the late fall, some of which are descended from Crimson Rambler. In particular 'Lady Blanche' which does not appear to have any CR in its genes, more like Ayrshire from its general look and habit. I was surprised that the Setigera hybrid 'Captain Kidd' gave a few flowers in late fall this year.
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Initial post
27 JUN 17
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* This post deleted by user *
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I am not sure what you mean when you say "this rose"? In my experience the size and colour of 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' and 'Excelsa' blooms are almost identical, (bearing in mind that both my roses are foundlings). But the habit of 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' is upright, and 'Excelsa' is sarmentose.
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Oh sorry Patricia, I forgot to upload the picture!
The size of the blooms are about twice the size of 'Excelsa', not the plant. I think you are right it is 'Turner's Crimson'.
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I don't think your rose is 'Turner's Crimson Rambler', but to check for yourself, please compare the pedicel and stipule with my photos. Not that mine are guaranteed, but they do have the prickly stipule that 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' passed on to the multiflora roses. You need to have side-on photos of the buds and pedicels. Full frontals give very little information.
The colour of your bloom is reminding me of "Manetti in Australia" actually.
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Ah yes Patricia, thank you for making me look at it properly! Looking at the 'Turner's Crimson' pictures, your rose has very bristly pedicles whilst mine are smooth and green. The rose will be really vigorous, it was only planted this year as a stick in a 2lt pot but has since sent out masses of shoots and managed to produce a couple of flowers low down on the ground. The stipules are like a saw blade wth small regular cillates, not all whispy like a usual multiflora hybrid. There is a row prickles along the mid-rib on the back of the leaf. The flowers are the same colour as 'Excelsa', 'Manetti' is far too pale. Something I have noticed on HMF is that often other peoples' roses are a stronger colour than mine, presumably you receive more, brighter and hotter sun than I do.
The parent plant grew as a sort of half rambler and half shrub sending out long shoots sprawling all over the place. It grew in a semi-wild garden in a nearby town, where I rustled it from. I thought at first it might have been 'Cerise Bouquet'. The leaves are rounder and darker green than 'Turner's Crimson'. It has since been "tidied-up" and has not flowered this year.
Two weeks ago it was 32 degrees, now is down to 12 with the most cheerless heavy drizzle, I just lit the fire, such a depressing thing to be doing in the middle of summer.
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There are a few files containing the name Manetti. It was the file "Manetti in Australia" that I wanted you to refer to. (This file was made after visiting California and noting their Manetti was different to the one we grow in Australia.)
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Rose correctly identified as 'Alexander Girault'.
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I think you meant this comment for the other rose you recently added photos for?
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Last year the rose was newly planted and just had a couple of flowers, not really much for identification. This is the same rose as one of yesterday's "What is this?" roses I asked about. I thought it might have been 'Turner's Crimson' but it's definitely 'Alexander Girault'. Just to confuse matters I also posted comments and pictures of a rose I thought could be 'Purpurtraum' but turned out to be 'Turner's Crimson'.
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Perhaps you might like to move your photos to the 'Alexander Girault' file, Andrew.
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My personal guess is that this rose has wichurana in it, but probably also 1/4 Hybrid perpetual from someone like Laffay, that made its way into Japan. Likely a rose that was used by Louis Lévêque fils a lot to make their red/purple OGRs. I think a modern rose (for the time) was from France, and not the UK, introduced the red/purple into the multiflora and wichurana species, which in the descendents mutated into pelargonidin. The potential was probably there to begin with.
Just my guesstimate based on the Japanese family name associated to this rose. I actually think it'd be easy to pin point which OGR was responsible for the red in this rose, but most descendents were not recorded in the early-1800s.I am guessing from a Gallica-China hybrid. Or even simply a Gallica.
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I can't remember which book I read it in but I'm sure I read that someone theroized 'The Engineer' was a mix of wichurana, multiflora and chinensis.
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It definitely has some phenotype traits of wichurana. Not a lot, but enough.
The problem with pure chinensis is that prickles above the stipules. This rather dominant trait follows this rose all the way to extremely distant descendents, such as 'Stormy Weather'. But it does not follow dominantly in polyanthas that are purely derived from multiflora/chinensis types. Rosa gallica is the most common example for this trait. My gut says that it is derived from both Gallica and Chinensis.
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Well, it would be interesting indeed if it originated in the west and not in Japan. It would be fascinating to have it genetically tested.
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I wish it could be tested! :D My guess is that it originated in Japan by the family name associated with the rose, in the Nagasaki region. Jesuits, Roman Catholics, and so on were found in Nagasaki and neighboring areas prior to WW2, and even wayyy before that.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Japan
What is interesting is that the Japanese family name is associated with NW African areas of French/Dutch/Catholic trade and immigration.
I think it was bred in Japan, and I think western roses found their way into Japan through religion and trade. However, I don't think the newest and brightest came through like lightning. Likely, religious family favorites and so on.
At least that is my best guess.
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I'm trying to write a talk about the history of roses to give at our village hall to raise money for charity. All the time information changes! This is an important rose historically and an important parent to many many other roses, to find its exact origin would be really interesting. Almost every book has incorrect information about the way modern roses were created. Where do you think the colouring for a rose like 'Russelliana' came from? 'Tuscany'?
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It's super important! Good work.
I think Russelliana could be a species/bourbon hybrid. I am not sure, but the bud/sepal/hip proportions are rather bizarre. A type of bud that is to roses that began in the gallica-china types and ended in the hybrid perpetuals.
I have also considered for the Engineer, that one side is species + chinensis, and the other is species + gallica. For example, some pink multiflora from Japan are thought to be hybrids (with chinensis, possibly) rather than color mutations.
Ah, yeah. Testing would be wonderful. It'd add the pieces of the puzzle to better guess the when, where, and what factors, to put together some sort of timeline and possible history with these roses.
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Some people say 'Russelliana' has setigera blood in it, it certainly has a lot of gallica from my observations. 'Himmelsauge' and 'de la Grifferaie' are very similar they all have the same habit of producing random very pale flowers, half pale or even just a few pale petals. If you don't grow 'Russelliana' and you have the space, it makes a very beautiful and very scented rose.
I wonder if 'Tuscany' is some where in the back ground of 'Erinnerung an Brod' and has supplied the genes to make the "blue" roses?
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Aristocrats of the Garden pp. 8-9. (1917)
Ernest Wilson
In 1878, Prof. R. Smith sent from Japan to Mr. Jenner in England a Rose which the recipient named The Engineer in compliment to the profession of its donor. In course of time this Rose came into possession of a nurseryman named Gilbert who exhibited some cut flowers of it under the above name in 1890, and received an Award of Merit from the Royal Horticultural Society. Soon afterward Messrs. Chas. Turner, of Slough, purchased the stock and changed the name to Crimson Rambler. This Rose is generally assumed to be a hybrid between Rosa multiflora and some China Monthly Rose, but to me this view is untenable. I do not think it has any China Monthly blood in it at all. It has long been cultivated in China and I consider that, like the Seven Sisters Rose, it is a sport from the common, wild pink-flowered China Rambler (R. multiflora, var. cathayensis). These various Chinese Roses were introduced from Chinese gardens where they have been cultivated from time immemorial and their wild prototypes were not discovered, much less introduced, until comparatively recently.
The true Rambler Rose (R. multiflora) is a native of Japan and has single white flowers in large panicles. This was sent to Lyons, France, from Japan in 1862, by Monsieur Coignet, an engineer. The pink-flowered Chinese variety has only just been dignified by a distinctive name.
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