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'Alexandre Trémouillet' rose Reviews & Comments
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Initial post
12 FEB 10 by
Don H
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From the photos of Alexandre Tremouillet it clearly has yellow in its blossoms so the description should probably be changed to reflect this fact.
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#1 of 7 posted
12 FEB 10 by
 jedmar
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The early references say "white, salmon-pink shaded".
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#2 of 7 posted
12 FEB 10 by
Cass
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There's a problem with that approach, Don, in that this is an older rose, and none of the contemporary descriptions we've found so far mentions any yellow. With older roses, we're alert to the fact that a good number of names are attributions, i.e. unidentified roses given a historic name after the fact. If you have seen any published descriptions that mention the yellowish tint of this rose, please send them along.
In support of your suggestion, the tones of the pollen parent have been described as including Indian Yellow, a bright, intense orangish deep golden color with a complicated history.
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And that's the beauty of having a plant specific comments section where members can post their observations.
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#4 of 7 posted
12 FEB 10 by
Don H
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>> a good number of names are attributions, i.e. unidentified roses given a historic name after the fact
Point well taken, Cass.
I posted a link at the RHA messageboard to a spreadsheet comparing the colors of most of the first generation wichuraiana hybrids with the colors of the partnered parent. In all but a few cases (such as for Alexandre Tremouillet) the color profile given at HMF for he F1 are basically those of the partnered parent. For the few exceptions, when you look at the photos and read the member comments you see that, in fact, those actually display some yellow from the parent as well. (I was cavalier and changed my color fields :)
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#5 of 7 posted
12 FEB 10 by
Cass
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Don, I don't want to overstate my position. There is definitely some yellow in a few of the late Teas, Chinas and Noisettes i.e. those dating from 1860 and later. A number of the strongly colored copper Teas and Chinas have very clear sulfur yellow at the base of the petals. Sulfur yellow at the base reflects yellowish up to the petals even when the flower isn't open enough to see the base. It looks as if the center glows. That reflection may be what the camera is recording in Alexandre Trémouillet. Bill Grant's shot is too blown out to be reliable. We should ask someone to post a shot of Alexandre Trémouillet with the petals removed from a bloom, similar to what I did with "Sawyer Plot Tea" placed on white paper.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.113197
There's speculation that such yellow comes from Rosa foetida, but little is known and nothing recorded about its use, that is, until we get to those introduced from the 1890's and later, where the foetida influence seems fairly obvious. The buff of Teas and Chinas hints at yellow. But none of those Teas and Chinas are as a yellow as the Foetida hybrids, the gold standard in describing yellow in roses. Even the late yellow noisettes lack the brilliance of the Hybrid Foetidas.
As for Souvenir de Catherine Guillot, we have only a single garden that claims to grow this rose. The pictures posted by AmiRoses are no doubt of the rose so-labeled at de l'Haÿ, but it doesn't resemble the historic illustrations. The de l'Haÿ rose looks exactly like Comtesse du Cayla to me, too copper in tone, not enough petals, no apricot.
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#6 of 7 posted
12 FEB 10 by
Don H
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Cass,
>> The buff of Teas and Chinas hints at yellow. But none of those Teas and Chinas are as a yellow as the Foetida hybrids
That is a key point. It seems reasonable that the yellows of roses bred through about 1890 do derive from repeated backcrossing of the Chinas and teas. I think that this process would have eventually reached its goal had it not been cut short by the work with foetidas which, as you say, seems to show up a bit earlier than the recordbooks say.
I have never seen Reve d’Or but no doubt you have come across it in your travels. If so, would you say that it displays the strongest expression (pigment density, not stability) of yellow among those earlier roses having no foetida influence?
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#7 of 7 posted
13 FEB 10 by
Cass
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The rose I received as Reve d'Or was not very yellow. It's more cream and apricot. William Allen Richardson is more yellow-apricot, in my opinion, and an exceedingly healthy plant, not unduly vigorous or huge. Crépuscule has the same tone, fewer petals. Duchesse d'Auerstadt, purportedly a sport of Reve d'Or, certainly looks yellower. Whether it is correctly ID'd is always a question. And the yellowest, most highly touted at the time was Maréchal Niel. Soflaterre is another early yellow. I'm not sure I've ever seen any of these, apart from William Allen Richardson and Crepsuscule, properly ID'd. I'm not saying that they aren't out there, only I've never run across them.
The common wisdom is that the buff shading can be attributed to Parks' Yellow Tea-Scented China, which was reported lost from cultivation in 1842 and again in 1882. The color was reported to be sulfur yellow, but as many other early sources called it cream. If you look at its first generation offspring, you won't find much yellow, only apricot, buff and warm cream. Maybe you're right, and the color was further refined in later generations.
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