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'Kaiserin Augusta Victoria' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 116-863
most recent 26 MAY 19 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 24 MAY 19 by Patricia Routley
I am puzzling over ‘Kaiserin Augusta Viktoria’. Jedmar has added a 1910 photo in which the blooms seem quite small. This smallness is backed up by the 1918-62 reference; perhaps the 1932 ref and the 1947-170 reference. Other references say KAV was large. I am wondering if there were in fact two roses.

Looking at the chronological references
1891 KAV bred. - initial references say the bloom was said to be large to very large.
1898-56 a parentage listed (Perle des Jardins x Belle Lyonnaise) large blooms and resembling Belle Lyonnaise.
1898-23 I am wondering if ‘Grande Duchesse Olga’, said to be a Tea, was a renaming, or a new rose with a parentage as shown in the 1905 reference.
1905 parentage listed as ’Coquette de Lyon’ (T) 1870 x ‘Lady Mary Fitzwilliam’ (HT) 1880.

’Coquette de Lyon’ initial references say this was said to be a small to medium sized bloom.
If ‘Grande Duchesse Olga‘ was incorrectly presumed to be a synonym of ‘Kaiserin Augusta Viktoria’, this might explain Jedmar’s photo of small blooms.
Reply #1 of 9 posted 24 MAY 19 by jedmar
The photo is indeed strange. I think we can be certain that the Kaiserin had large Blooms, as otherwise she would not have had the impact she had. Possibly the bllom in Mütze's photo is small because he used a forced plant? It looks like a buttonhole-size.
Reply #2 of 9 posted 24 MAY 19 by HubertG
Is there a later edition of the book with the same photo? Maybe in this photo the white rose is incorrectly labelled and perhaps it is corrected in a later edition.
Reply #3 of 9 posted 24 MAY 19 by jedmar
No, there is a recent reprint, but the 1910 edition is the only one.
Reply #4 of 9 posted 24 MAY 19 by HubertG
Thanks, Jedmar.

Patricia, there is an article in the 1897 'Die Gartenwelt' (page 58) in which the writer describes a visit to Ketten Bros nursery and seeing "Reine Olga", a rose exactly like KAV. Then at Soupert & Notting they see the same rose as "Reine Olga 1897" and upon enquiring are told it is 'Grande Duchesse Olga' sent out by Lévêque et fils. For the writer it was KAV without doubt ("Ein Irrtum is ausgeschlossen" - a mistake is out of the question). They believe Lévêque also 'released' another renamed rose and advised caution when buying from this firm.
So it does seem that 'Grande Duchesse Olga' is a renaming of KAV, at least according to this article.

I'll try to enter the translation etc later on.
Reply #5 of 9 posted 24 MAY 19 by Patricia Routley
Jedmar, do you know who the photographer was?
When I ask Google, I get a page for Prinz-Heinrich-Mütze, the brother-in-law of KAV. My mind conjures up a scenario (I am good at this) whereby he really didn’t like his sister-in-law, and so found a bunch of the tiniest blooms obtainable.

HubertG, you are amazing. Thank you for that. I have added the synonym of ‘Grande Duchesse Olga’ and introducer, Leveque.
I’ve also added a Note about the two royal ladies.

There is still the question on the different parentages.
Reply #6 of 9 posted 25 MAY 19 by HubertG
Patricia, having another look at the 'Die Gartenwelt' article, the other Lévêque rose that the writer felt had been renamed was "Impératrice Alexandra Feodorowna" which he felt, as far as he could tell, was in fact the Soupert & Notting creation 'Prince Hussein Kamil Pascha'. The Empress Alexandra Feodorowna herself was the wife of the last Russian tsar Nicholas II, and their first child, a daughter born 15 Nov 1895 was titled at birth Grand Duchess Olga. This strongly suggests to me that Lévêque certainly did rename two roses at that time in honour of the Empress Alexandra and her baby daughter (so perhaps not the other Grand Duchess Olga, the Tsar's younger sister).

More importantly, I believe I have solved the parentage dispute:-
In 'Die Rosen-Zeitung' edited by Peter Lambert of Trier (the breeder of KAV) there is an article about the hybridisation of roses written by Walter Easlea (June1902, page 52). He makes a reference to 'Cornelia Koch' and 'Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria' which receives an Editor's remark by Lambert himself which clarifies the parentage. Here is the passage and annotation, plus my translation:

"Von Devoniensis stammen Jean Pernet und Cornelia Koch. Von letzterer Varietät stammt wahrscheinlich, sei es aus Samen oder als Sport, die Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria *).

*) Stimmt nicht; die Eltern waren Coquette de Lyon und Lady M. Fitzwilliam. P. Lambert"

From Devoniensis come Jean Pernet and Cornelia Koch. From the latter, be it from seed or as a sport, apparently comes Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria *).

*) That's not true; the parents were Coquette de Lyon and Lady M. Fitzwilliam. P. Lambert

So, Peter Lambert himself obviously would have known the parentage of his own rose and clearly felt strongly enough about it to correct Easlea's wrong assumption. I assume that by him mentioning the parents in that order means 'Coquette de Lyon' was the seed parent.
Reply #7 of 9 posted 25 MAY 19 by jedmar
Prinz-Heinrich-Mütze means "Prince Heinrich cap", a flat cap which was named after the brother-in-law, Prince Albert Wilhelm Heinrich of Prussia, who was Grand Admiral of the Imperial Navy.
The name of the photographer is not mentioned. The introduction states that the Hybrid Teas and the summer flora was put together from the plantings of the Royal Horticultural School of Dahlem near Steglitz and photographed according to the "Lumière Process".
I found one more photo of KAV in the same book, which shows a shoot from a "German Forcing [nursery]". Will scan and upload tomorrow. The photo shows a small to medium sized bud.
Reply #8 of 9 posted 25 MAY 19 by Margaret Furness
I wonder when roses and horses diverged in descriptions of parentage. Roses are described as seed (female) parent x pollen (male) parent. A horse is by its sire (male parent) out of its dam (female) parent, which is clear.
Reply #9 of 9 posted 26 MAY 19 by Patricia Routley
Jedmar - I am sure you are right about the picture being of forcing roses. It is a far better explanation than my mindless scenario.

HubertG -
1890-68. I was a bit dismayed to see yet another rose mentioned for the parentage, but obviously Mr. Easlea was presuming from Mr. Strassheim’s observations in the Rosen-Zeitung 1890: “The shape and color is somewhat similar to Cornelie Kock, but is much richer.”

1898. Pierre, du Plouy in the Journal des Roses reported the parentage was Perle des Jardins and Belle Lyonnaise, and retained a slight resemblance to the latter.
Who was Pierre du Plouy? I have asked the internet and found this on the La Roseraie du Val de Marne website:
In 1906, Pierre du Plouy deplored the confusion caused by there being two versions of the bush’s name – ‘Baron Girod de l’Ain’ and ‘Baron Giraud de l’Ain’ – and turned to the variety’s creator for answers : “It would be nice if the name could be settled upon once and for all. The final word must be with the breeder”.
I wonder did he check the parentage of KAV with the breeder.

1902 in the Rosen-Zeitung Peter Lambert, the breeder confirms the parentage of ’Coquette de Lyon’ (T) 1870 x ‘Lady Mary Fitzwilliam.

We have to accept the German breeder’s statement on the parentage in the German publication. To me, the French publication’s parentage looks more probable, but I do not have KAV

I have added approximate translations for some of the references.

I am completely confused between the Alexandrovnas and the Feodorownas and so have deleted the maIn page Note about who Grande Duchesse Olga was.
Discussion id : 88-108
most recent 27 SEP 15 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 27 SEP 15 by Eric Timewell
Available from - Kurinda Rose Nursery
Discussion id : 80-477
most recent 14 SEP 14 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 13 SEP 14 by Margaret Furness
Does KAV set hips?
Reply #1 of 2 posted 14 SEP 14 by Patricia Routley
It must do. There are many descendants listed with K.A.V. as seed parent.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 14 SEP 14 by Margaret Furness
Thanks, I should have thought of that!
Discussion id : 67-659
most recent 18 OCT 12 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 18 OCT 12 by Margaret Furness
Can anyone tell me the date and discoverer of Climbing K A V?
Reply #1 of 1 posted 18 OCT 12 by RoseBlush
Hi Margaret...

HMF has that information on the 'Climbing Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria' rose page in the database with several REFERENCES. You can find it here:

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