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'Mrs. Charles Bell' rose Reviews & Comments
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Hi everyone! I was (still) searching some clues about an (still) unidentified HT and found some pictures of a lady growing an extremely similar rose.
As I have once said, one of my first research lines when I started this long identification process (more than 5 years now) was the 'Radiance' group, despite the roses within this "group" are strongly scented and my rose is not. But I have just found some pictures of 'Mrs. Charles J. Bell' (aka 'Pink-Shell Radiance') from Mrs. Patricia Roetley (Australia), that match perfectly with the my plant.
Does anyone have some reference regarding this sport of 'Radiance'??? In the "References" section of the 'Mrs. Charles J. Bell' HMF sheet, there is not information regarding its scent. Could a sport of a scented rose be completely scentless??? Can someone growing this rose confirm me if it is scented or not???
My warmest greetings from a mild winter in BA and thanks in advance for your help.
Mariano.
PICTURES OF MY UNIDENTIFIED ROSE:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Mr.Saviell/WhiteBlendRoseID?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite
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Hi Mariano, I grow Mrs. Charles Bell and it is as scented as the rest of the Radiance group. That means it is very fragrant. The shape of your rose fits well with what you can regularly expect from Radiance and its variations. The color is a bit different, but that shouldn't be an issue as most roses can vary greatly from one place, one climate to the next. And, yes, it is entirely possible for a sport to also change scent. It all depends upon which genes are involved in the mutation. I wonder, though, if you cut your rose in bud and opened it indoors, if you might detect the scent? You might also have a number of other people smell your rose under good scent conditions to see if perhaps it's your "sniffer". You might not be sensitive to that particular scent, even though it is actually there. A good friend grew Cardinal Hume, one of my favorites for scent. He was never able to detect the "Red Hots" scent from it at all, even though, standing beside him, smelling the same flower at the same time, it was powerful to my nose.
Basing an identification simply on the photo here in the Q&A, I would say the chances are good it's part of the Radiance group. Looking at your Picasa sets, I would say it's a newer, more modern variety. Those photos don't have the "feel" of Radiance. Yours feels more 1960s to 1980s,
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Hello Mariano,
My rose was a foundling and I came to the conclusion that it was 'Mrs. Charles J. Bell'. I've added another couple of photos to the file including one of the canes. My plant seems to be less thorny than yours. However, I would say that your rose might well be 'Mrs. Charles J. Bell'. Perhaps the "feel" of your photos is that they seem to be very healthy and vigorous, perhaps too healthy to be a 1917 rose?
Patricia
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I agree with you about prickle level, size and severity, Patricia. Radiance and its type have prickles, but nothing as large or as dense as the rose in question. The flower "clusters" are never as densely stuffed as those shown in the photos, either.
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As the clusters on my bush seem to be "densely stuffed", perhaps my foundling too, may not be 'Mrs. Charles J. Bell'. I'll go to the books and see if I can add anything more to the references for this rose.
Thanks for the "heads up" Kim.
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Thank you all of you for your kind replies! :)
@Kim, the rose was smelled by many people and we all agree it has none to mild fragrance. Furthermore, the color looks totally different from the one you grow as MCJB :(
@Patricia, thank you very much as well for your pictures. Although the canes look somewhat like my rose and the color of leaves are exactly the same (how am I supposed to described this "green color", btw?); the shape of the clusters and color of the flower do not look exactly like the rose we grow in Argentina. Is your MCJB scented, by the way?.
Greetings from Argentina!
PS.: Does anyone have any pictures of White/Yellow and Golden Radiance? I would love to know how these beauties must look like! Is there any Rosarian growing any of them?
Mariano (mariano_saviello83@yahoo.com.ar)
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Marilano - would you please remove your personal email address from your comment.
Private email addresses attract spammers to the site.
HelpMeFind has a private message facility which enables members to communicate.
Would you also please think about supporting HelpMeFind with a premium membership?
That little red star next to the name shows those who do support, and when it is missing, those who haven't quite got around to it.
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Patricia,
Thank you so much for your suggestion, I have just removed my e-mail address from my original message.
In reference to support HMF with a premium membership, I would love to do it but, unfortunately our extremely inflated currency is of great concern to us and it would be quite expensive for me (1USD is almost 10 ARS). It was always my dream because it would not only help HMF, but would also let me learn a lot more having access to many more tools within the site. But I think I would not be able by now.
Thank you anyway for your suggestion!.
My warmest greetings from a sunny spring morning in BA, Mariano
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I've never run across any images for the other colors of Radiance you asked about.
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I’ve added a few more references and think I understand what you mean by the “feel” of Radiance. It may well be the tea-like quality that the Radiance family have. ( See the 1928 and 1932 references for ‘Radiance’.) Perhaps my photos should be removed from the ‘Mrs. Charles J. Bell’ file, but I want to see the plant again in a couple of months from now to see if it has any tea-like quality. Right now I doubt that it has any.
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Patricia, what's about 'Admiral Dewey' (John H. taylor, US, 1899), the white sport of 'Madame Caroline Testout'? Maybe your (and my) rose, could be this old HT! :)
Let me know your thoughts!
Mariano
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Hello Mariano,
I’ve added some more references to ‘Admiral Dewey’. Most of them are Australian and most don’t tell you very much at all. The 1914 is the best of the lot of the newer batch.
The Hawter Nursery reference which is another which tells almost nothing, but to me it tells a lot. The Hawter Nursery was a half a mile from where I found my rose growing in an old 1888 garden belonging to Joe Bovell. Hawters did list ‘Admiral Dewey’ in their 1909 catalogue. However….. Joe had died but I did find and rang Mrs. Bovell in 2001 and she said Joe got all his roses from the Beelerup Nursery (south of Donnybrook & turn right) and John Dawsons [which did carry ‘Careless Love’ in 1959 and 1960] in Perth from catalogues. She elaborated on some of the rose names she could remember and ‘Careless Love’ “pink with reddish stripes” was one of them. Bovell’s neighbour at the old Blackwood Inn took my husband up to the Bovell house and gave him cuttings for me of a rose he found interesting, “pink with white speckles on the petals”, he said. This rose is the one I have grown from the cuttings that day and it may have been ‘Careless Love’ at one time, but for me it has always been an apricot pink, with the only variation, the few blooms I have seen fading to white. I was fairly convinced it is ‘Mrs. Charles J. Bell’.
I have a named ‘Careless Love’ planted within three metres of my plant, and ‘Mme. Caroline Testout’ planted within 5 metres. Neither has grown very much but my aerobic compost tea mixture seems to be having an effect and I am hoping for better growth this season.
I think your rose is more likely to be ‘Admiral Dewey’ than mine, because of the prickles. I have ‘Mme. Caroline Testout’ and it is one prickly rose. I have seen a photo of the front cover of the 1900 Peter Henderson & Co., New York catalogue which featured ‘Admiral Dewey’ and the artist drew in some fairly large thorns.
I am unable to access your website, but did once and seem to recall that your rose had some fairly erect stems – as did ‘Admiral Dewey’ apparently. With your foundling, I would concentrate on the leaves. I am sure ‘Mme. Caroline Testout’ has fairly round leaves.
Patricia
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Reply
#12 of 13 posted
16 SEP 13 by
 jedmar
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The globular form of your rose is quite typical of Mme Caroline Testout and her descendants. Besides 'Admiral Dewey', also look at 'Frau Dr. Krüger', Grossherzogin Victoria Melitta', La Favorite' and 'Mme Gustave Metz'.
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Dear Jedmar, Patricia and esteemed members,
After more than 5 years, I am pretty sure that the pink blend rose is the white sport of “Madame Caroline Testout”, HT “Admiral Duwey” (1899). Although I have just received some pictures from the Sangerhausen, they were enough for me to identify my unknown rose as this old “Madame Caroline Testout” white sport.
Jedmar, I would possibly discard some other related roses, such as “Frau Dr. Krüger” since it has golden-yellow undertones, borne mostly solitary and occasional repeat later in the season. My rose does not have golden-yellow undertones, usually blooms in clusters and has a profuse fall bloom. HT “Grossherzogin Victoria Melitta” has white or white blend flowers with a yellow center and a strong fragrance, while the unknown rose has not any yellow coloring and none to mild fragrance. “Mme Gustave Metz” could have been another possibility but it is too pink, at least in my humble opinion. Furthermore, it has a long pointed form while the unknown rose is more globular. “La Favourite” was also a globular HP, related with “Mme. Caroline Testout” and its descendants, with globular form and it is a good fall bloomer (like my rose), but it has a deep rose color that turns soft pink as the rose ages.
Having said that, I am quite sure that the found rose from that old garden in BA is HT “Admiral Duwey” (John H. Taylor, 1899), although some more pictures would help me to confirm this properly. Any contribution would be highly appreciated.
Patricia, I am quite sure we both have the same rose. Maybe you can go on this research line. Maybe "Admiral Duwey" was also offered in some neighboring nurseries and you can confirm what your white blend rose really is.
Greetings from Buenos Aires and have a wonderful weekend! :)
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Initial post
25 JAN 08 by
jedmar
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Rosenlexikon says 'Mrs. Charles Bell' (1917) is sport of 'Radiance' (1908) not 'Red Radiance' (1916). Sounds more reasonable from a timing point of view. Are there any early sources for the Red Radiance descent?
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What kind of foliage does Mrs. Charles Bell have?
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#1 of 5 posted
20 JAN 08 by
Cass
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Matte medium green in color. Are you asking about disease resistance?
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I am asking because my neighbor's hybrid tea bears a startling resemblance to the photo of Mrs. Charles. The foliage color sounds right. I've been trying to find out what her rose is without much success - until now. Thank you so much for the info.
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#3 of 5 posted
20 JAN 08 by
Cass
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Take a look at Radiance, which has a lot of shots of the foliage. It's a big family of sports. I grow Careless Love, another sport, which sports back to Mrs. Charles Bell on occasion.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=5059&tab=10
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Re: What kind of foliage does Mrs. Charles Bell have?
A close look at the surface shows many tiny indentations which remind you of a sage leaf.
I have put two pictures in the 'Mrs. Charles J. Bell' file, one of which shows the glandular pedicels and you should check this as well. It is certainly not a smooth pedicel.
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Hmm, I'll have to look again at the photos I have & see what the upper stem's surface looks like.
I looked & there definitely that glandular pedicel you pointed out.
Here is a photo of the bud. I found that the fully opened bloom wilted under strong sun.
Thank you for these photos.
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