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'Sant' Antonio di Padova' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 133-603
most recent 1 JUL 22 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 1 JUL 22 by Hamanasu
There is a really sweet and strong scent to the blooms, which seems to be there whether it's overcast and windy (like today) or hot and sunny. The petals seem very soft, though they don't seem damaged by yesterday's showers. What the rose exactly smells of is a question mark for the time being -- it's a complex scent that is neither fruity, damask or tea. I can't put my finger on it. POSTSCRIPT: I think strong honey with a touch of aniseed is a decent description, or perhaps honeydew honey.
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Discussion id : 77-037
most recent 1 SEP 14 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 5 MAR 14 by Cà Berta
Vivai Sgaravatti by David Celetti, Casa Editrice Il Poligrafo, 2013, Page 41

Uno dei “tecnici ibridatori” più competenti fu Walter Pino Salmaso, sotto la cui guida si ottennero due nuove varietà di rose denominate Ricordo di Leone Sgaravatti e Sant'Antonio da Padova.

Translation: One of the most competent breeders was Walter Pino Salmaso, under whose guidance two new varieties of roses, named “Ricordo di Leone Sgaravatti” and “Sant’Antonio da Padova”, were obtained.
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Reply #1 of 9 posted 8 MAR 14 by jedmar
Does this mean that these roses should be reassigned from B. Sgaravatti to Salmaso?
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Reply #2 of 9 posted 9 MAR 14 by Cà Berta
I think so.
Benedetto Sgaravatti was the owner of the firm and Salmaso one of the firm breeders. At that time Benedetto Sgaravatti, to improve his rose catalogue, was introducing also Giovanni Borgatti's roses (Saonara, Su Spantu).
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Reply #3 of 9 posted 31 AUG 14 by andrewandsally
This is an interesting point. It would seem from Celetti's book (kindly lent to me by Ca' Berta) that Salmaso was an employee of the Sgaravatti company. If that is the case and if he created this rose implementing the company's breeding programme, it would seem logical to assign the rose to Sgaravatti (which Sgaravatti is another matter).
In the case of Massimiliano Lodi (about whom Ca' Berta knows more than I do) there is a good case for referring to his varieties as Bonfiglioli/Lodi as he didn't work for Bonfiglioli but marketed his roses through that company (it would be interesting to see a contract, if indeed there was one). The same is true for Albert Norman, a diamond cutter by trade, whose immensely successful 'Ena Harkness' and 'Frensham' were introduced by Harkness and are thought of as Harkness roses.
Ca' Berta and I are socialists - what! politics in the rose world! - and we are always keen to identify the "active breeder" rather than his or her employer who in many cases may not have given much of input. That is why we have tried to identify Ludovico Cazzaniga as the breeder at Fratelli Ingegnoli and tried - in vain - to unravel the mystery of which Barni bred which rose.
Obviously the current convention is to ignore the employee and only acknowledge the company. To some extent this convention simply reflects the conservative views that dominate in horticultural circles. To abandon this convention at this point, however, would create enormous inconsistencies and so I am against doing it, but, at the same time, would encourage researchers to try to identify the unsung heroes of the plant world rather than thoughtlessly glorifying company names.
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Reply #4 of 9 posted 31 AUG 14 by jedmar
If we can identify the breeder, I tend to consider him/her as the breeder, and the company only as the introducer.
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Reply #5 of 9 posted 1 SEP 14 by Nastarana
Then you have the case of Champney's Cluster, introduced by John Champney, a Charleston rice grower and, obviously, also a slave owner. So, one has to wonder, who was it really who either bred or discovered the seedling which would become progenitor of the Noisette group of roses?
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Reply #6 of 9 posted 1 SEP 14 by Cà Berta
The big and small companies specialized in roses certainly have breeding programs headed by the firm owner. In the generalized nurseries, at least in Italy, rose breeding was left to technical employees, mostly personally interested in roses. This is the case also of the company Ansaloni, whose breeder was Stelio Balestier, a refugee from Istria who died in 1971 (personal communication by Edo Ansaloni) who certainly deserves to be acknowledged. However the attribution to the company is certainly useful besides being due, because of its essential contribution.
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Reply #7 of 9 posted 1 SEP 14 by andrewandsally
Ca' Berta says that the work of the "breeder" needs to be acknowledged. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Precisely what that work is also needs to be defined. It may be that a manager who has analysed market trends defines an objective and a technical expert proposes a series of crosses and back-crosses that might produce that result; it may then be that another carries out the pollination procedure and that another again acts as a selector of the seedlings produced...
Is there information about the structure and relative responsibilities within historic rose breeding establishments?
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Reply #8 of 9 posted 1 SEP 14 by Cà Berta
It is very true that when a chain of command is long it is difficult to understand where the responsability starts and stops .... however when it is acknowledged by "someone who knows" (for example the employer), I would not have any doubt! This is the case of Balestier whose contribution is recognized by Edo Ansaloni. Also for Salmaso (Sgaravatti) I would not doubt as Celetti certainly got the information from "someone who knows ..".
It can not be generalized then and, in each case, some knowledge of what was going on is needed
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Reply #9 of 9 posted 1 SEP 14 by andrewandsally
Some idea as to how complicated this is in big operations is well-expressed in this quotation from Wikipedia's history of Jackson and Perkins (credited by hmf with 76 varieties): "Harry and David moved the rose hybridizing facility to Tustin, California and hired William Warriner to continue the hybridizing work of Boerner. He introduced three hybrids, developed by Gene Boerner, which won AARS awards: Gay Princess in 1967, Gene Boerner in 1969, and "First Prize" in 1970." Harry and David (whose name does not appear in hmf) bought J&P after the death of Charlie Perkins (nephew of the Charlie Perkins who founded the company).
Boerner is credited with the breeding, Warriner with "development" and J&P with introduction.
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