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'Autumn' rose Reviews & Comments
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Pearson's Encyclopedia of Roses (1956), pg. 171.
Autumn (H.T.) (Sensation X Souvenir de Claudius Pernet) Orange and red with plenty of petals. Very fragrant. The firm stems make variety excellent for cutting especially in early autumn. It does especially well on lighth soils. (Coddington, 1930.)
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I planted this over winter, so my experience is limited - I'm in the outskirts of London, UK. So far I have not been that impressed with Autumn, I was under the impression that she is very disease resistant and highly scented, but so far both claims have not been true.
She has not looked as happy as my other newly planted roses, most of which get less direct sun, nor has she been as generous with blooms, so far I have not been able to detect any noticeable scent and she has had mildew and rust. The flowers have been utterly gorgeous, her 1st took my breath away - but sadly these fade & shatter very quickly - so much so that I currently would not consider using her in a bouquet.
However, in our recent heatwave - she did seem to pick up, looked much healthier and the blooms lasted a bit longer. Prehaps *fingers crossed* she just needs more time to settle in, but so far I am getting the impression that she is probably more suited to a constantly warmer climate.
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#1 of 1 posted
4 AUG 22 by
Johno
I don’t know who or what reference indicated to you that Autumn is highly fragrant and very disease resistant but neither aspect has been my experience. As it approaches a century of existence its continual availability is a sure sign that Autumn is something special, and well worth a place in the garden. The pernetiana background explains the beautiful and changing colouring of coppery orange and yellow. This rose is worthy of persistence and to admire in the garden rather than on the show bench.
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Available from - Rogue Valley Roses
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WONDERFUL older HT! Very fragrant, blooms like a weed and gets HUGE in my desert climate.
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#2 of 26 posted
20 JUL 15 by
styrax
I always wanted to try Herbert Hoover Seeing it is the same cross ( it shows!), which brother might be the better grower? If Diamond Jubilee was clean, perhaps they might be...
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In my conditions, Autumn had more foliage and larger flowers. Both were beautiful flowers.
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What size might I expect in my zone 10b climate? I have a hankering for this beauty but not much space for more roses.
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Own-root roses are much smaller (1/2 size) compared to grafted on Dr.Huey (those cheap body-bags at local stores). Check on the nursery's reputation before ordering, by googling "The scoop of Rogue Valley Roses", or "The Scoop of Roses Unlimited".
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I'm guessing you mean size at time of purchase, rather than eventual mature size, which of course depends on pruning and the class of rose. Old Tea roses on their own roots can be huge, and I have some sizeable early HTs that were cutting-grown.
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Agree with Margaret, I jumped in just to warn about Rouge Valley Roses own-root nursery, after a friend had a bad experience this year. Old Garden roses are vigorous & big as own-root, I gave away own-root Jacques Cartier since it was taller than me in zone 5a .. bought as a tiny band. But modern hybrid teas and Austin roses are much bigger as GRAFTED on Dr. Huey. My Heirloom and Angel Face as own-roots are 1/2 the size, compared to the the same, grafted-on-Dr.Huey. Most of my own-root Austin roses look like mini-roses for the first few years, but the blooms are just as big as grafted. My own-root Pink Peace's blooms had more petals & better scent compared to the grafted-on-Dr.Huey (twice taller).
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Nope. I meant mature size so I know if I can squeeze it in or not. I didn't know I had to prine my teas differently than other roses. So much to learn!
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The one I had in CA, hot and dry, never got over 3' and was a narrow bush. I would think it could be shoehorned into a small yard. No BS, which one rarely sees in CA, and I don't remember it being mildewed either.
I am afraid RVR is the company of last resort for me, on account of having received more than one mislabeled rose over the years.
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For MANY years, there was an own root Autumn in the Huntington Library Rose Garden. It was between five and six feet tall and spread easily four feet. It wasn't dense and full, as most Pernetiana types were not "dense and full" unless budded, grown in ideal conditions and professionally pruned. We used to joke that with Autumn, budding it would act as a "dwarfing method". The Huntington is in Zone 10a. Autumn IS gorgeous and you actually have a shot at seeing the reported colors...IF you provide it protection from the hottest, brightest afternoon sun. Pernetianas generally want warm, dry, brilliant light, but to really obtain "those colors", you need to protect the flowers from the worst sun and heat. Remember that when they were "the thing", Dr. J. H. Nicholas, former breeder for J&P, termed them "thirty minute roses" because that was about how long they lasted in hot sun.
I grew Mark Sullivan for many years. I HAD to have it because of its description and the fact Ralph Moore used it to breed his moss roses and I HAD to study it to see where the traits in his roses came from. In my 9b climate with NO shade, it was "buff". Until one cool, wet, long spring when the "old gold with crimson veining" finally expressed itself. I do love Autumn and wish it was possible to find one not infected with RMV. In over thirty-five years, I've never encountered one.
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We are about 2 miles north of the Huntington. I haven't been able to visit their rose garden ( only ever get to the fantastic childrens garden these days) but look forward to visitng whenever I am next able.
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I don't know if Autumn is still there or not. They have replanted many roses and upgraded the gardens tremendously. When I was last there in October, 2016, for the Heritage Rose Conference, Autumn wasn't one of the plants I deliberately looked for.
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A good substitute for Autumn is Halloween. Halloween has 65 petals, compared to Autumn with 25. In hot weather, there's a petal-count reduction, so I prefer more-petals. Many folks rave about the fragrance of Halloween, including a friend in hot Texas. She has hundreds of roses, but misses Halloween the most when she lost it over a harsh winter. Roses Unlimited has Halloween as own-root.
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Halloween is a pretty rose, but suffers from rust where Autumn isn't nearly as susceptible in Southern California. Thanksgiving, another Howard rose (like Halloween) also has tremendous scent with "Pernetiana" coloring, but it, too, is more susceptible to rust here. Both are much more modern appearing with denser foliage and modern architecture, but Autumn won't rust nearly as badly.
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Both are lovely but what about rmv you mentioned with autumn? I don't know much about it but would hate to bring in a contagion to my rose garden. Rust doesn't sound good either. Where is my bomb proof heat loving long vase life orange/apricot rose? Or, if rmv isn't a big concern maybe I'll switch my focus from Halloween (emailed roses unlimited about it latst night) back to Autumn (which seems harder to find).
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Bomb proof heat loving long vase life orange/apricot rose is Tuscan Sun floribunda, a glorious sunset/orange/copper hue, on sale for $12 at Roses Unlimited. Hoovb in hot CA posted a fantastic pc., plus Dave/Deb Boyd grew it in their only 12" of rain Montana climate. I was tempted to order that this week, but its lack of scent held me back. In a vase, if you have a few long-lasting ones for color, plus some intensely fragrant ones (Sutter's Gold), it will balance out.
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Thank you for all your advice! So many roses to explore! And soil chemistry too- I got my vegetable beds tested this year and now I suspect I ought to do the same for my rose zone too. It's humbling and exciting to be entering an area I am such a novice at and I'm really delighted I stumbled across this site.
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My B.S. degree is in computer science, minor in chemistry, and knowledge of soil chemistry does help to grow healthy roses. A professional soil test (only $20) can save lots of money in losing roses to diseases. The test for salt-content in soil runs higher. My alkaline clay was tested at pH 7.7, exceedingly high in magnesium, barely adequate in calcium, and less potassium & phosphorus. My alkaline tap water (pH 9) zaps out potassium for blooming, plus zap out phosphorus .. so roses' color become faded. But with acidic rain-water or the right fertilizer, my roses have deeper colors.
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My soil test was $50. I researched options and the less expensive (often through co-op extension) wouldn't take our soil because we are in a fruit fly and other pathogen zone :( If it was $20 I'd get them for several areas. At $50 I need to be choosy. Where did you get your test done?
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From EarthCo. company, recommended by rosarian Karl Bapst, zone 5a. But that company no longer gives out soil-test to homeowners. County Extension also gives test, but more expensive, $40 to $50. I posted in my HMF-profile the link to cheapest pH test using red cabbage juice. For $1 of distilled water and $1 of red cabbage, one can test the pH of 20+ different locations in the garden at the same time. There are charts to determine what's nutrients are missing, given one's pH level. Will post the link in my HMF-profile on that.
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StrawChicago, please remember your version of "heat" and the Southern California (and Montana) versions of "heat" are quite different. There are not only great differences in the humidity levels, but also the intensity of UV and duration of actual light and temperature hours. What is "heat loving" or "heat tolerant/resistant" in Chicago (or Montana) is very likely not going to perform similarly in Southern (or Central, or the hotter inland areas of Northern) California.
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We have intense heat in my Chicagoland from July to Sept, it got over 100 F, and MELTED the wheels off from the barbecue-grill. When I push my patio-screen to open, the metal-handle burnt my finger, so I always use a cloth when I push the door open. I have a board to cover my windshield whenever I park my car outside, otherwise the steering wheel burns my finger. One summer I walked for 5 minutes, and rushed inside since I could not handle the heat. The sun here is very intense to produce really sweet tomatoes. I don't have fog like my sister in Southern California. That's why I give my roses 4 to 5 hours of sun only, lots of shade nearby the house. Growing up in Michigan wasn't that way. My sister from Mission Viejo visited me last summer. She complained how intense our sun here, and refused to go outside to see my roses.
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When you get into roses with more petals, more chance of rust due to the depletion of calcium and potassium after blooming. Lots of calcium and potassium is used up to produce that many petals. With my 100+ varieties of high-petals-count roses, I use sulfate of potash and gypsum to fix my alkaline tap water (pH 9): fill a large bottle with 3/4 vinegar, then keep adding POWDER potassium 1st, then gypsum in a 2 to 1 ratio, until those solids can no longer dissolve. Then use 1 tablespoon of that per 2 gallons of tap-water.
I spent hours researching the cause of rust after Sonia Rykiel (over 100 petals) rust on me in a dinky pot in hot summer. If you check with agricultural abstracts, here are the causes of rust: 1) excessive rain which leaches out calcium and potassium 2) low potassium and high manganese 3) high-salt tap water 4) hot & dry weather which induce potassium deficiency. Potassium deficiency is also linked to mildew.
The logic of using sulfate of potash plus gypsum to fix alkaline tap water is: gypsum (calcium sulfate) is known to de-salt saline soil, so gypsum flushes out the salt. Sulfate of potash is to provide sulfur to lower the high pH of tap-water, plus to provide potassium to prevent mildew and rust. Austin roses with zillion petals have a higher need for calcium and potassium.
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RMV was, at one time, a major issue with American raised roses. It reached its zenith in the late eighties to mid nineties, and it has been theorized that something like 80% of the American crop was infected with one (or more) types of the plant viruses which comprise Rose Mosaic Virus (RMV), including PNRSP (Prunus Necrotic Ring Spot Virus). Some strains are more virulent than others and some roses are much more susceptible than others. As there are different types/strains, as a rose passed through different companies, some were actually infected with multiple strains/types, increasing their viral load. With very popular, long-produced types such as Queen Elizabeth, Double Delight, Iceberg and many others, at one time, it was impossible to find stock of them which was NOT infected. Fortunately, there are and have been programs in various universities across the country which have "indexed", tested and heat treated many varieites to clean them of the RMV group. Because of these programs, it is possible to find plants of them which are not infected. Unfortunately, the last American source which actually identified their cleaned stock was Vintage, which is no longer in active business. Pickering, in Canada, which is also now out of the nursery business, indexed, "cleaned", all of their roses they sold. Heirloom Roses has long had a policy of indexing their roses. Presumably, a variety purchased from Heirloom SHOULD be free from RMV.
For older types which were never passed through any indexing program, it is virtually impossible to find examples not infected. Occasionally, a very old plant is discovered somewhere, propagated and introduced back into circulation. Also, occasionally, it finds its way into a virus testing program and is found to not be infected. Schmidt's Smooth Yellow, a thornless, yellow Polyantha discovered in an old garden in San Rafael, CA and Belmont Yellow, another yellow poly type discovered back east, were both tested and determined to carry the same strain of PNRSV, indicating they had both probably been produced by the same source at one time. George Washington Richardson, a found rose in an old cemetery in California, was tested and found to be free from RMV. It has also been observed to be virtually identical to the rose now determined to be the original Mlle de Sombreuil, not the large flowered climber in commerce as Sombreuil, but the Tea rose. Atmore Lamarque, the plant brought to Ventura County from Placerville, CA by covered wagon by the Atmore brothers in 1869 and planted at the Queen Anne style mansion one of the brothers built, the family still occupies and at which the plant still grows, has been tested and found to be free of RMV.
For anyone living in a warmer climate, where "killing freezes" are not an issue, growing a virused rose is much less of an issue than for someone living where winter weather can more easily take out a plant. Where a variety is able to be found without viral infection, of course it is preferable. But if you want a particular rose and it is only available with RMV infection, and you live where "winter" won't be expected to potentially kill it, it's your choice whether or not to grow it. Yes, I do have a very few roses I know are virused. If and when I am asked for cuttings of them, I do indicate to the person asking for them I know they are infected. That permits them to make the choice whether or not they still desire them. I know my Lilac Charm has RMV. It occasionally expresses the characteristic leaf patterns, but I love the rose and I choose to grow it. The RMV may perhaps inhibit its performance. I don't know for sure as I have never seen a plant of it anywhere which did not express the virus symptoms at some period of the year. For several others, I grew them with infection in the past and determined that if clean stock were to become available, I would grow only the indexed material to grow them again. Sterling Silver is an excellent example of that. I grew it for years and it expressed symptoms. When indexed material presented itself, I obtained it and am now nursing the own root plant along until I can bud it to indexed root stock. The point is, living in Zone 10, most roses with RMV will likely grow acceptably for you, as very many had for many years at The Huntington Library. Would an uninfected plant of the same variety perform better? Possibly, possibly not. Would an uninfected plant be desirable over one known to be infected? Personally? Absolutely! But, what if you can't obtain that specific rose known to be free of RMV? It's your choice whether to deprive yourself of growing a rose you desire because it is only available with RMV, or not. As I have stated, I choose and have chosen for several decades, to grow the roses I wanted, whether infected or not and have replaced those with infection with clean stock, if and when it has become available to me. Had I lived where a weakened plant would more likely to have been killed by severe cold, I may have made a different choice...or not.
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Thank you for your thoughtful and incredibly informative reply!
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Autumn is one of the best roses I know for desert climates. The colors are wonderful at every stage. From burnt orange washed with red, they fade to a lovely soft buff with peach overtones. Rebloom is rapid; and the tidy bush is usually covered in blooms. The blooms last a long time in the vase, even if, like me, you don't know how to condition them. It is also one of the most drought tolerant repeat blooming roses in my yard. It needs maybe a long drink about every 3-4 weeks even in the hottest weather. Mine is in a sheltered location, so it mightn need more water if it were exposed to afternoon sun and hot winds.
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It mildewed badly here in my desert climate. I had it several years on it's own root.
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