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'Fiamma nera' rose Reviews & Comments
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The solution is simple (I think). The white rose in the accompanying photograph is the hybrid multiflora rose Fiamma Nera given in the Sangerhausen Rosenverzeichnis as C:106/1 bred in Jugoslavia in 1938. The Ingegnoli rose (probably bred by Lodovico Cazzaniga Snr.) is, as I have shown, deep red.
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#1 of 6 posted
4 MAR 12 by
 jedmar
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Finally: the two 'Fiamma nera' separated! Thank you for your research.
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#2 of 6 posted
14 JUN 12 by
Cà Berta
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Unfortunatly there are still a few inconsistencies.
Here http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/plants.php?searchNmTyp=5&searchNm=fiamma+nera&rid=4050&sbSearch=SEARCH&tab=1 the white hybrid multiflora is still related to Ingegnoli although there are no evidences of such relationship.
The short information on the origin of the name is reported in the description of the white hybrid multiflora whereas it should be in that of the dark red hybrid tea. Thank you.
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Why do you (and hmf) categorize Fiamma Nera as a hybrid tea. Both the Stazione Sperimentale report and the Costa Azzurra Agricola-Floreale give it as a Wichuriana climber. Here is the CAAF (8/2 p.32) description: "Rosa <<Fiamma Nera>> (Wichuriana rampicante), arbusto vigoroso e fioritura ricchissima, di tinta scura di effetto sorprendente."
[Rose 'Fiamma Nera' (Wichuriana climber), vigorous bush with abundant flowering, dark red giving a striking effect.]
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#4 of 6 posted
21 SEP 12 by
jedmar
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Thank you for the reference. This could explain why a white multiflora in Sangerhausen is labeled 'Fiamma Nera' - the label got mixed-up in the climbers' section. The true 'Fiamma Nera' is possibly still there under a different name!
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Now all hmf needs to do is remove the picture of the white rose.
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#6 of 6 posted
23 SEP 12 by
jedmar
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The rose is labeled in Sangerhausen as 'Fiamma Nera' and the photos now show this unknown rose. What HMF needs are photos of the red 'Fiamma Nera' of Ingegnoli.
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Initial post
23 OCT 11 by
jedmar
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andrewandsally commented on October 21, 2011:
I doubt that Fiamma Nera has the meaning you say. More importantly, this climbing rose is not white but dark red according to Ingegnoli's 1929 catalogue (p.46) where the petals are described as "blackish" (this is the origin of the name). How this got mixed up with a white rose is anyone's guess.
The 1927 Stazione Sperimentale di San Remo report (p.7) confirms a beautiful, dark colour for this rose. That Report gives its date as 1923.
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#1 of 2 posted
23 OCT 11 by
jedmar
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andrewandsally, I agree that a white rose seems not appropriate for a name like Black Flame. The name originates from Sangerhausen, which has Yugoslavia 1938 as origination. The mix-upmust have happened there.
If you could quote the catalogue entry of Ingegnoli and report of San Remo, then we can separate these two roses.
Regarding the meaning of "Fiamma Sera", the fascist connotations are there. Various songs of the black shirts with Fiamma Sera are known since 1921. Ingegnoli has a further rose called 'Giovinezza', which was the Fascist hymn. 'Balilla' was the name of the youth organisation of the fascists. 'Redipuglia' commemorates the war memorial inaugurated in 1938.
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Dear Friends,
The 1927 Technical Report of the Stazione Sperimentale (p.7) lists Fiamma Nera as a rose the institute had planted and says: "Blooms a beautiful dark colour". The Ingegnoli catalogue I referred to is that of 1929 p.56 where the petal colour is described as "un rosso molto cupo" - a very dark red. If you need them I can, of course, send you digital versions of these documents.
andrewandsally
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Initial post
17 MAR 10
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* This post deleted by user *
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#1 of 0 posted
18 MAR 10 by
Cass
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