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'William R. Smith' rose Reviews & Comments
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From the Rosen-Zeitung, Sep 1913, pg 111
"The Best New Roses for the Years 1910, 1911 and 1912.
TEAS: Mad. G. Serrurier, Mrs. Harold Silberrad, Alice de Rothschild, Lady Hillingdon, Mrs. Foley Hobbs, Mrs. Herbert Stevens, Recuerdo de Antonio Peluffo, Alexander Hill Gray, Charles Dingee."
I've included this quote here because it indicates that William R Smith was imported into and was known in Germany as Charles Dingee. Presumably Sangerhausen's specimen called Charles Dingee (if it hasn't been mixed up) would be William R Smith.
I'm keen to see a mature plant of 'Charles Dingee' from Sangerhausen to compare it to other William R Smiths.
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Thank you HubertG. Reference added.
These following two references are of interest in that they quote different parentages - and years. Sorry, I haven't done any research on 'Charles Dingee' but am sure there will be more to be found.
1911, May 20 The Garden, p243
Charles Dingee... Tea, D. and Conard, 1910, (Hermosa x White Maman Cochet)
1911, Aug 19. The Garden, p404
William R. Smith Hybrid Tea, Smith, 1908, (Kaiserin Augusta Victoria x Maman Cochet)
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#2 of 5 posted
23 MAR 18 by
 HubertG
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Dingee's 1918 catalogue lists both Charles Dingee and William R. Smith, so they must be two separate roses.
They emphatically claimed that they were the originators of Charles Dingee (as Hermosa x White Maman Cochet) and promote it as the 'best bush rose in the world'. They also warn of others roses being passed off fraudulently as Charles Dingee.
Despite the confusion over the early distribution and naming of the original William R Smith, it looks very likely that Charles Dingee is a distinctly separate variety and that William R Smith has at some point been passed off as Charles Dingee, hence its existence as a synonym.
There's even a very good photo of "William R Smith" in this 1918 catalogue (besides photos of 'Charles Dingee")
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#3 of 5 posted
23 MAR 18 by
HubertG
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"Charles Dingee" The Most Wonderful Bush Rose in the World (See the Colored Photographic Illustration on opposite page.)
The Charles Dingee Rose is the result of cross-breeding between Hermosa, that grand old hardy pink variety, and White Maman Cochet, perhaps the greatest of all white garden Roses - a superb parentage, which insures its offspring every point of excellence. With the hardy, vigorous constitution of a Hybrid Perpetual, growing to perfection in almost any soil or situation, it has the most magnificent foliage, absolutely free from disease, that we have ever seen in any Rose.
It is a tremendous grower, the best in our entire list of over 800 varieties. If you have a place where other Roses have failed in that spot, Charles Dingee will flourish and will produce its gorgeous flowers with wonderful profusion. We have had it growing and blooming in all its glory in a temperature very little above freezing. Growing to a height of 2 to 3 feet, Charles Dingee blooms continuously, producing immense, deep, double, grandly formed flowers on long, stiff, erect stems; both in bud and bloom their beauty is nothing short of superb, practically impossible to describe because of the delicate blending of colors - rose tints in the center of flower, gradually shading off into pale blush creamy white, a color effect both entirely new and distinct.
CAUTION We are the originators and sole owners of the Charles Dingee Rose. Imitations and so called duplicates of it are intended to deceive.
From the "Dingee Guide to Rose Culture", 1918, page 3.
Very interesting that it is only 2-3 feet high.
Do you think that HMF should have separate entries for 'Charles Dingee' and 'William R. Smith'?
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Thanks HubertG. I've added the 1918 references.
I don't think we should have separate entries at the moment. Perhaps others in the future will come up with more evidence to prove they were separate roses.
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#5 of 5 posted
12 JUN 19 by
HubertG
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I found the 1938 catalogue of P. Bernaix (Les Incomparable Roses Lyonnaise) online. They list 30 choice tea roses including both 'Charles Dingee' and 'W.R. Smith'. I thought it to be interesting since at this date one would expect the only teas to have survived commercially were ones that had proved themselves, and it is hard to imagine that if these two roses were in fact the same that Bernaix would not have worked that out. Dingee & Conard listed both roses for many years as well. Bernaix gives them different descriptions:
"Charles Dingée (Dingée & Conard, 1911). Fl. tr. gr., pl., col. rose."
"W.R. Smith (Smith, 1908). Fl. gr., pl., belle forme, col. blanc crème lavé rose."
I translate this as 'Flower very large, double, colour pink' for Charles Dingee, and for W.R. Smith, 'Flower large, pretty shape, colour cream white washed pink'.
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I'm not sure what's going on, but I tried searching for this rose on HMF using "William R. Smith" (minus the quotes) and got a message saying the rose didn't exist. Is there a glitch or am I just missing a typo I made?
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Yes,I think there is something odd.
William R Smith gets me straight there.
William R. Smith does not get me there.
The difference is one little full stop.
Admin?
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#3 of 7 posted
26 MAY 19 by
mmanners
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Yes this is still happening (May, 2019). (Patricia?) -- "William R. Smith" (with the full stop) is said not to exist. you have to make it William R Smith to get here.
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I can’t help any more with this one Malcolm. Only Admin can.
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#5 of 7 posted
26 MAY 19 by
mmanners
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Sorry, thought you were "Admin." Who is that? thanks.
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Admin is short for a very small team of Administrators who keep this community-funded website running smoothly. They are assisted by an equally small team of volunteers, of whom I am one, who assist in any way they can on the roses, but any assistance at all is appreciated - and needed. For all of us, it is a labour of love. I am sure Admin will be in touch on that Smith fellow.
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#7 of 7 posted
27 MAY 19 by
jedmar
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'William R. Smith' works again. Sometimes it is a just a broken link, probably during a merge/deletion of a synonym which ttok place 11 years ago. Adding the name anew and deleting the old one usually works.
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There's been some sloppy editing in the distant past (thanks for the references Patricia);
American Florist - Volume 25 - Page 866 (Dec. 2, 1905): The rose is a cross between Isabella Sprunt and Maman Cochet.
1911, Aug 19. The Garden, p 404 Kaiserin Augusta Victoria x Maman Cochet. Repeated by others.
Hazlewood Bros. Pty. Ltd Website/Catalog (1922) Page(s) 28. Evidently a pale sport from Maman Cochet.
But the breeder's description is very clear: Maman Cochet x Mme Hoste.
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#1 of 4 posted
8 APR 18 by
HubertG
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Would the 'American Florist' date of 1905 be correct? W. R. Smith was supposed to be introduced 1907/8.
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"American Florist' 1905 says "it has been under trial as a forcing rose for some years". "Horticulturalist" of 1905 also describes the event at which the rose was formally named.
Presumably it was bred quite a while before its official release.
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#3 of 4 posted
4 AUG 18 by
HubertG
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I found this very interesting. From the 1910 catalogue of G.H. Peterson "A Little Book About Roses":
"WM. R. SMITH (very vigorous). Shellem 1907.
Our own country has at last achieved the honor of producing one of the very greatest - if not the greatest - of all outdoor blooming roses. The general color effect is blush, gradually assuming a yellowish tint after being cut a day or two. The buds are exquisitely moulded (see cut on last cover page), opening to a very full and perfect flower. The stems are long, with superb foliage, absolutely disease proof. The new growths are rich reddish, the foliage and wood changing to glossy green at maturity, with red thorns. Each strong growth usually produces four buds, three at the terminal and one lower down; all but the center terminal one should be pinched off. The vigor and constitution of this rose is simply marvelous. Has withstood several northern winters without protection. "Jeannette Heller" is this rose, and has no right to that name. Disinterested authorities claim that "Charles Dingee" is also this rose, but I have not yet flowered that variety. Knowing the interest and discussion this rose is bound to arouse, I personally spent several days in travel tracing it from the time it was named at a Philadelphia dinner party in honor of the head of the U. S. floral department at Washington back to the sowing of the seed in 1898 by an obscure florist, Richard Bagg, then at Bridgeton, N. J. I have known this rose, which is a seedling from Maman Cochet and Mad. Hoste, since the summer of 1905. (On own roots). 60c.; extra selected, 75c."
I've uploaded the photo on the back cover mentioned in the text above.
This description appears much the same in Peterson's catalogues in different years but with minor additions and alterations, which I'll add here one by one.
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I've added the 1910 reference. Thanks HubertG.
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Initial post
31 MAR 18 by
hebe
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I have two WRS, and both behave more like climbers than shrubs. They have three or four canes (one 3yo and one 2yo), and shoot up to 10' in no time. The blooms open here, unlike Maman Cochet's (humid and warm Sydney), and are stunning. Occasionally they brown and ball, as in Patricia Routley's photos, but not often enough to stop me growing this rose. The fragrance is strong for a Tea, sweet and spicy.
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#1 of 6 posted
1 APR 18 by
HubertG
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Hebe, may I ask from where you purchased your William R Smiths? I'm in Sydney too and would like to get this rose from the same nursery.
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#2 of 6 posted
1 APR 18 by
hebe
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Hi Hubert, I'm not going to be of much help as I got both of mine from Misty Downs, who no longer sell roses. One was called Amelia Anderson, and the other was called Dr Grill - apparently a common misnomer.
I have had roses from Ross Roses, and was pretty disappointed with what they sent me. They list Dr Grill - but who knows what it is?! I am getting some from Thomas for Roses this year, for the first time. I will gladly send you some cuttings from mine, if you would like, as I have to move one this winter anyway.
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#3 of 6 posted
1 APR 18 by
HubertG
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Hi Hebe, thanks. That's a pity that it was Mistydown's. Are your 'Dr Grill' and 'Amelia Anderson' exactly the same? I'm told most Dr Grills sold in Australia are apparently W R Smith, but my Dr Grill (lots of photos posted) just doesn't look the same as your rose or some of the other American W R Smith photos which look identical to your rose. Maybe some time have a look at the photos of my Dr Grill and please let me know if you think your W R Smith/Dr Grill looks the same.
I was hoping to get your W R Smith to compare to my Dr Grill in real life.
Does your rose set hips? Mine does. My Dr Grill fragrance isn't strong or sweet, more grassy/hay, so it doesn't sound like your scent.
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#4 of 6 posted
1 APR 18 by
HubertG
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I forgot to add that I'll gladly take you up on your kind offer of cuttings. Many thanks!!
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#5 of 6 posted
1 APR 18 by
hebe
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Hi Hubert, yes, my WRS and DR Grill look the same. I had a look at your photos, and they do look different. I dead head mine, so it hasn't had a chance to set hips.
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#6 of 6 posted
1 APR 18 by
HubertG
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Thanks, I just couldn't bring myself to think that they were the same either. I'm not sure if it is the real Dr Grill or not, but it just doesn't look like W R Smith/Amelia Anderson. Thanks for the prompt feedback!
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