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"Alice Maud Hall" rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 98-372
most recent 7 APR 20 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 3 APR 17 by Patricia Routley
It might be of interest if those who grow "Greenbud", "Henry Vaughan", "Alice Maud Hall" or "Callimore", compare the thorn photos of 'Konigin Luise'.
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Reply #1 of 23 posted 4 APR 17 by billy teabag
I wish Barbara May and Jane Zammit were still with us to enjoy this Patricia. Barbara would be so pleased.
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Reply #2 of 23 posted 4 APR 17 by Patricia Routley
They are up there on their cloudy pillows, watching and cackling and nudging each other with "I told you so. Didn't I tell them that was it." (All the foundlings are labelled up there.)
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Reply #3 of 23 posted 5 APR 17 by Margaret Furness
Barbara said "Greenbud" etc weren't KAV. Not sure I can tell the prickles apart (KAV and Konigin Louise).
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Reply #4 of 23 posted 5 APR 17 by Patricia Routley
I note you and Jane Zammit (deceased) are the only people who have contributed photos. This is dreadful. Perhaps there is a member or two of the Heritage Roses in Australia, NSW regions, who has, or could photograph these foundlings. Is there anyone out there who are actually growing these old roses? We need photographs of the stems with a horizontal aspect of the thorns. The date of 'Konigin Luise' 1929 introduction in Sydney sits well with Alice Maud Hall's 1927 burial date. (It would also be of interest to have the dates for Henry Vaughan, Callimore, and the grave on which "Greenbud" was found.)
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Reply #5 of 23 posted 5 APR 17 by billy teabag
Have added some photos of "Henry Vaughan" taken in the Renmark Repository in autumn. There are some unfocused prickles.
They were taken at a time of rapid growth just after the end of the long and hot 2015 summer.
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Reply #6 of 23 posted 5 APR 17 by Patricia Routley
Great. Thanks Billy. I think the thorns under the leaf rachis are the same as in Bruna's photos of 'Konigin Luise'.
However, the stipule of "Henry Vaughan" seems not as fimbriated as 'Konigin Luise'. What do you think? We might need to cross 'Konigin Luise' off as a possibility because of this.
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Reply #7 of 23 posted 5 APR 17 by billy teabag
Some roses produce leafier bracts, longer, leafier sepals, more foliaceous (?) sepals and stipules during times of rapid growth - often in the autumn here.
Before crossing it off, could we try for a series of photos over the year to see whether "Henry Vaughan" and 'Konigin Luise' are variable in this respect?
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Reply #8 of 23 posted 5 APR 17 by Cà Berta
I will keep Konigin Luise under observation
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Reply #9 of 23 posted 28 MAR 20 by petera
I have this plant from Steve Beck as Mme Jules Bouche. To my eyes the buds and flowers look very close but the prickles might be too hooked and backward pointing. I also grow KAV but it doesn't have the pronounced green of the buds and is more lemon in the centres of young flowers which then fade to pure white. Mount Macedon, Victoria, 28MAR2020
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Reply #10 of 23 posted 28 MAR 20 by Margaret Furness
Have added a set of photos this evening.
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Reply #11 of 23 posted 28 MAR 20 by petera
The buds and pedicels are glandular on my rose, not smooth as on HV, and receptacle is the wrong shape. Oh well, I thought it was a chance.
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Reply #12 of 23 posted 29 MAR 20 by Patricia Routley
Petera, I wonder if your rose could possibly be ‘Molly Sharman-Crawford’ which does have bristly pedicels and can have green tinges.
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Reply #13 of 23 posted 29 MAR 20 by Margaret Furness
A full-face view might tell you: Molly often has a green eye.
Molly is one of several roses sold in Aus as Niphetos, none of them correct.
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Reply #14 of 23 posted 29 MAR 20 by billy teabag
Molly Sharman Crawford has a terrifically easy distinguishing feature - no prickles on its stems.
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Reply #15 of 23 posted 29 MAR 20 by petera
I am still pretty happy that my rose is Mme J. Bouche. Over the season it is quite variable as to whether there is green, lemon or pink at depth within the flower although I have not yet seen buds as pink as those posted by Margaret in Feb 2018. This rose has the usual complement of prickles. The plant also looks like a typical HT, not a tea, but then to me the pictures of MSC doesn't look all that tea-like either. I have posted a picture to show the shape of the receptacle on a young flower. My plant really resembles the early pictures of MJB posted by Jedmar and Raphaela. It will take a few days to get a full frontal picture of a good mature flower as the last two days of northerly wind, then today's storm, have battered the open flowers.

So few of the pictures on HMF are really useful for serious identification and the more I learn the more confused I become.
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Reply #16 of 23 posted 29 MAR 20 by HubertG
Maybe also consider 'Angelus', HT from 1920 as a possibility for "Henry Vaughan". It broadly matches the descriptions. There's only one photo here so far but it has good detail. The foliage seems like a fair match to me, and it is written up in the Australian newspaper archives, so certainly available in the 1920s. Also, the name suggests an appropriate choice for a grave rose.

Just a suggestion.
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Reply #17 of 23 posted 29 MAR 20 by Margaret Furness
Yes, appropriate name.
if anyone visits Sangerhausen or the Fineschi garden (if they're open this summer), it would be good to have some ID-detail photos
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Reply #18 of 23 posted 29 MAR 20 by jedmar
Currently both closed. The 'Angelus' at Fineschi is the one from Gaujard. Listing corrected
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Reply #19 of 23 posted 29 MAR 20 by Patricia Routley
I can’t see the thornless ‘Columbia’, (seed parent of ‘Angelus’) producing a thorny plant like “Henry Vaughan”. But you never know. I will see what I can find on ‘Angelus’ today and add anything to the references.
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Reply #20 of 23 posted 30 MAR 20 by Margaret Furness
Thank you.
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Reply #21 of 23 posted 30 MAR 20 by Patricia Routley
A few more refs added.
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Reply #22 of 23 posted 5 APR 20 by Margaret Furness
Petera, are you the Gallica man? I'm going to need many articles for the winter Heritage Roses Journal, because the regional regional reports will be very thin.
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Reply #23 of 23 posted 6 APR 20 by petera
Margaret,
I am not really a "gallica man" but that rumour seemed to be spread about after I was at Ruston's collecting with Pat Toolan, John N, and Steve Beck a couple of years ago. My main interest has been HPs but once I finally realised the collection at Ruston's was in imminent danger of being lost I have tried to find a home for as many of the early HTs and Pernetianas as I could, and whatever HPs have been available. It is possible I could write something about our salvages and which plants have performed well for me and probably John. When is the submission deadline?
Peter
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Reply #24 of 23 posted 7 APR 20 by Margaret Furness
That sounds good. June 3rd is the deadline, but earlier submissions make it easier for the proof-readers.
Margaret
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Discussion id : 106-378
most recent 7 NOV 17 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 7 NOV 17 by Michael Garhart
I immediately wondered 'Mrs. Herbert Stevens', but it's hard to tell in photos. Especially whiters.
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Reply #1 of 1 posted 7 NOV 17 by Margaret Furness
Good point, but I think not - I grow both. Mrs Herbert Stevens (as we grow it in Aus) has longer buds, and the characteristic brown stems that make pruning difficult (which wood is dead?). And commonly a central ball of petals.
The best bet so far is Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria, but Barbara May who looked after the Rookwood roses didn't think so.
I've just cut bits for a comparison photo, and realised that Mrs Herbert Stevens is whiter (although it too has some lemon in the centre). Unfortunately I don't have KAV to compare.
Moderate tea scent in my plant of "Henry Vaughan".
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Discussion id : 96-296
most recent 11 DEC 16 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 10 DEC 16 by Patricia Routley
I have added the rose 'Edith Krause' to the list of possible identifications. The date is about right for the 1927 grave Alice Maud Hall as the rose was introduced in 1932. Photos of the stems with average thorns would help.
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Reply #1 of 2 posted 11 DEC 16 by Margaret Furness
I'm adding pics from my plant, which is "Henry Vaughan".
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Reply #2 of 2 posted 11 DEC 16 by Patricia Routley
Thanks Margaret. Your photos certainly show the "stout, strong and long" stems of 'Edith Krause', but there are too many thorns to match the 'Edith Krause' description of almost thornless. It was a good try, but I don't think so.
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Discussion id : 80-561
most recent 20 SEP 14 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 17 SEP 14 by Eric Timewell
I'm surprised the description of this rose does not mention scent. As it is, this rose looks identical to what one might call John Nieuwesteeg's KAV, which has a very strong, pure tea scent, one of the best I've come across. Sure, scent varies a lot, but it would be striking to someone sometimes if Callimore were the same.
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Reply #1 of 5 posted 17 SEP 14 by Jane Z
more descriptive information is to come, Patricia kindly opened a file with bare bones information. the fragrance is not "tea" though, its definitely sweet HT style - hopefully Margaret will have some observations on the fragrance.
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Reply #2 of 5 posted 17 SEP 14 by Eric Timewell
Mm. I'll have another sniff.
Actually a beautifully itemised plant description, showing where HMF should be moving.
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Reply #3 of 5 posted 17 SEP 14 by Margaret Furness
John N once suggested Kootenay for "Henry Vaughan", but doubt has been cast on the ID of our "gold standard" plant of Kootenay anyway.
I'll check the "Henry Vaughan" in my garden when I can smell again (it's cold-and-flu season), but my nose isn't as trained as Billy's.
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Reply #4 of 5 posted 17 SEP 14 by Eric Timewell
For what it's worth, the JN Kootenay at Maddingley Park is nothing like the JN KAV there. Much messier, usually balled and with weaker scent. Above all, the petals at the bud stage are not apple green. But eyeballing the photos, his KAV looks exactly like your Henry Vaughan.
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Reply #5 of 5 posted 20 SEP 14 by Eric Timewell
On the scent of KAV, Quest-Ritson calls it “Strong and tealike”. Peter Beales just says ”a delicious perfume”.
On the ID of Callimore, the evidence for KAV (not just John Nieuwesteeg's KAV) is strong. Few of the American or European photos show just-open buds, but the ones that do, e.g. Sangerhausen's (http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.208455), are plainly apple green. More: the thorns point slightly down and on the current year's growth they are red. Are they the same on Callimore?
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