(2008)
Excerpts from the discussion;
...I was reading Leonie Bell's account of
Banshee when I wondered if she had chosen the wrong rose to nominate as Banshee. Why would anyone keep and passalong a screwed up rose, one that balled and wouldn't open? All those versions she had been sent were suckers or seedlings from the original plant.
She describes Banshee as possibly a cross between rosa rapa and Maiden's Blush. I've just spent two hours on google trying to find a picture of rosa rapa. What turns up are very old accounts of it at google books and a painting by Redoute. Redoute has painted it as double and light red. It has nine leaves. I could find nothing at the Canadian rose Society, other wild species groups, etc. They name rosa blanda, rosa nutkana, and rosa acicularis
Pickering did not sell it. Helpmefind has no supplier. These old accounts of this rose describe it as occurring above the the Arctic Circle, possibly on Hudson Bay, and they say Eskimo women loved to put them in their hair. Rosa blanda is called the Hudson Bay Rose. The flowers of r. rapa are described as loosely double and pale, while rosa blanda is your usually single pink western rose.
One learned English botanist last century said rosa rapa shouldn't be classified as a rose, because of the turnip shaped calyx.
The other day I happened to say that Jon's rose Rose reminded me of my rose, Hallie's rose also doing business as Banshee. Why? It was the height. I could find nothing about the height of r. rapa., except for one excerpt from Graham Thomas's book and a bit about it in Stirling Macoboy, all found when discussing JonÃs rose, Rose d'Amour. Thomas said he'd wrongly identified it as r.virginia, and it wasnÃt Rose d'Orsay either. He thought it might be rosa rapa due to the calyx. And yes, everybody said Rose d'Amour is extremely tall....
....I looked at your close-up, and you can tell from the foliage and from the sepals that there isn't a lick of virginiana in Hallie's Rose - it doesn't look anything like 'Banshee', except in the most abstract sense, and doesn't have any of the tell-tale 'Banshee' traits. It looks more pure European old garden rose to me.....
....Hallie's Rose doesn't look like the Banshees that we have in the cemetery. Our roses look like the Helpmefind photos posted by A Woodland Rose Garden - very double, paler pink, with extravagant sepals.....I have heard some speculation that 'Minette' is the same as "Banshee" - and that this rose is often found in Finland and other northern European countries. I haven't seen 'Minette,' either, although its description, including the tendency for the flowers to ball, sounds familiar. ....
.... charm of the tiny, tight-scrolled buds which unroll very slowly (so that shape almost defines the look of the bloom). Also as mentioned the Autumn colouring beginning in the photo taken this morning - and the quite significant rebloom. The canes are long, lax and wiry. Left to its own devices the shrub would mound on the ground. It is better displayed in a garden tied loosely to a large tripod where it can arch from a greater height. It is only pruned to take out dead twiggy material, and is now (after about 10 years) about 9 feet tall. I cannot see any trace of 'Alba' in any part of the plant - nor 'Damask', really. It has the 'feel' of a true or near -species, rather as the other slightly unlikely double 'Californica'. It is likely a hybrid, and wouldn't it be nice to think that it was the rose GST mentions: ' According to my old friend Gordon Coe of Elgin, Morayshire, there is at Lochloy, Nairn, a plant of 'Rose d'Amour' which was given to the then owner of the property, Miss Burnaby, in the late eighteenth century by George Washington.'....
....I have the species Rosa virginiana and once had the the High Country Roses version of 'Banshee' which looks identical to your 'Hallies.' I can see no viginiana similarity to 'Banshee' other than the outrageous, suckering. The species has glossy little leaves and smaller hips. I agree, 'Hallie' looks like a plain old Euro-OGR mongrel. Jon's photos look just like a double form of Rosa virginiana. But blooms in September?! That inplies something else is in there, but we'll never know....
.... I am certain that 'Banshee' is a hybrid - probably of Rosa virginiana (or some variant or hybrid of that species) with a European old garden rose; it's just impossible to say precisely what class that other European parent may have been without rigorous testing. "Minette" is absolutely the same rose, but it is NOT the 'Minette' of Vibert, which was an alba and whose old descriptions absolutely rule out the possibility of it being the rose masquerading with that name today. That mistake was made by a European rosarian visiting Sangerhausen, where the rose we know as "Banshee" (and which has other, equally valid old names in Scandinavia) was mislabeled as 'Minette', and careful review of the evidence was not conducted before drawing a wrong conclusion and perpetuating that incorrect name throughout Scandinavia. That mistake has arrived on our continent now through Canada, and although the gentleman I spoke with at Pickering agreed to change the name in their catalog this fall (adding that their plant came from Corn Hill, where the owner had said it may be the same as 'Banshee'), I find that they have not done so.....
....Everywhere I look, checking into this rose, I run into all things Scottish. Queen Josephine's gardener was Scottish. His name was Hewartson, according to Stirling Macoboy.
Trying to chase Hallie's Rose back to Canada, I was immediately stymied. Her married name was Nesbeth, a name found in Scotland and Ireland. www.familysearch readily turned up some Scottish Nesbeths living in Brantford, Ontario in the 1800's. Brantford is just down the road from Hamilton, where Paul Barden got his copy of Banshee. Brantford is known as the blooming capital of Canada, and the Royal Botanical Gardens are located at Hamilton. Alexander Graham Bell lived there. (Scottish.)...
....For 'Banshee', a height of about five feet is pretty typical. It suckers greatly, but it isn't a lengthy grower; it's actually pretty sturdy and bushy. 'Rose d'Amour' is supposed to be taller, but they are not the same rose. It would be pretty wild speculation to guess that Hallie's Rose is a parent of 'Banshee', though.....
..... I suspect that there are some differences between the Sangerhausen rose and those grown previously in Scandinavia as Rosa x suionum or Mustialanruusu, etc. Its blooms have a characteristic button eye and symmetrical form I've never seen in another 'Banshee', the flowers come in larger clusters than I've seen 'Banshee' do, and the receptacle appears to be both less turbinate and much smoother than typically very glandular receptacle and sepals of 'Banshee'. I do not normally find pictures of other 'Minette' specimens in Scandinavia or elsewhere like that at Sangerhausen, leading me to believe that either wood was never spread from that garden, or it has been slow to spread compared to the dominance of the pre-existing plants. I think more study will be necessary before it's possible to say whether the Sangerhausen 'Minette' is even part of the 'Banshee'/'Mustialruusu'/R. x suionum clan. Mr. Merker's initial judgment synonymizing these roses seems to have been premature.....
