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"Dornenlose Kreiselrose" Reviews & Comments
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Available from -
https://www.cornhillnursery.com/Roses.html
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REPLY
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Initial post
17 MAY 20 by
 jedmar
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Thank you to Horst Peters for posting detailed photos of "Dornenlose Kreiselrose" from his website rosen-kultur.de. The discussion about Rosa x suionum/Mustialanruusu/Dornenlose Kreiselrose which is found under the listing of "Banshee" should rightfully continued here, as most of it does only indirectly relate to "Banshee".
My current top candidate for the original "Dornenlose Kreiselrose" is 'Rosa sine spinis' (Rose without thorns), which was received by Clusius 1576 in Vienna from Jena in Thüringen/Germany and then distributed. The few woodcuts which exist of 'Rosa sine spinis', though rough, look similar. This references for this listing were initially under R. francofurtana, however, there were quite many authors which listed both roses, so a separation of the listing seemed logical.
Intriguing for me is also the synonym "Virgin Rose" mentioned by John Rea in 1665. From this I arrived at the choral "Ave, Rosa sine spinis" by Ludwig Senfl (1490-1543) and Thomas Tallis (1505-1585), which celebrates the Annunciation with Archangel Gabriel greeting Virgin Maria with "Hail, Rose without thorns". The religious connotation of a rose named 'Rosa sine spinis' might have led to its being planted in churchyards in Europe - a hypothesis. Text and music can be found on the web.
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Initial post
26 JAN 16 by
Raynyk
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Maybe 'Banshee', Rosa x suionum and 'Dornenlose Kreiselrose' should be added as synonyms and the other roses be merged with this one?
According to Hellmer Merker and Ernst Loménius (1985) Rosa x suionum is identical with 'Minette'.
Other old names in popular speech is "svearnas ros" in Sweden, "nordens rose" in Norway.
Reference:
Rosor för nordiska trädgårdar
Author Lars-Åke Gustavsson, 1998
Quote from page 139-140:
"
'Minette', nordisk ros
Syn.: Rosa x suionum Almqv.; svearnas ros.
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Hellmut Merker och Ernst Loménius har klarlagt dess ursprung och återgett den dess ursprungliga namn, se Merker 1985 a och b.
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I won't even tackle 'Banshee' at the moment, but It does seem as though Rosa x suionum and 'Minette' should be merged. However, I hesitate to because of the words "the rose currently available/ sold as 'Minette'."
I note that Rosa x suionum is shown as a Turbinata, and 'Minette as an alba, Centifolia.
And I would like to add that I am way, way out of my depth here.
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Reply
#2 of 4 posted
29 JAN 16 by
Raynyk
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I have no photos of my own but I'll try to attach photos in this post of Rosa x suionum taken by P.H. Salvesen (Arboretum and Botanic Garden, Bergen Museum, University of
Bergen) published in their article "På jakt etter kulturminneroser i gamle hager langs kysten av Norge" by him and Per Arvid Åsen (Agder Naturemuseum and Botanic Garden, Kristiansand).
My own translation of the title; Searching for cultural heritage roses along the coast of Norway.
They write that Merker identified Rosa x suionum as a synonym based on the plant at Sangerhausen marked as 'Minette' 1985.
In the article it is noted that J.A. Nannfeldt and Lars-Åke Gustavsson question wether the rose currently labeled 'Minette' is the original one, but there is consensus that the currently labeled 'Minette' (that one that is presented as 'Minette' at HMF) and Rosa x suionum are identical.
The article can be read in the pdf below:
"På jakt etter kulturminneroser i gamle hager langs kysten av Norge"
av: Per Harald Salvesen, Arboretet og Botanisk hage, Bergen Museum & Per Arvid Åsen, Agder Naturmuseum og Botaniske hage
http://www.uib.no/filearchive/aarringen2010.pdf
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The files are merged. Thank you for your patience
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Reply
#4 of 4 posted
6 MAY 20 by
jedmar
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In have added a rough English translation of the Norwegian text you mentioned. Now we need a comparison of the characteristics of Rosa x suionum with the description of 'Minette' by Prevost (1829).
Addition: Also the English test of Joy (2006) on "Mustialanruusu" and the translation of Gerda Nissen's text on "Dornenlose Kreiselrose" added.
'Minette' is not marked in the Rosenlexikon of 1936 as existing in Sangerhausen. According to Ms. Nissen it arrived there only in 1940. Now in April 1940 Germany had occupied Denmark and Norway prior to France in June 1940. If roses were being sent to Sangerhausen as part of the booty, this rose might well have come from Norway instead of France, and mislabeled on arrival (by intention?) No documentation as to provenance seems fishy.
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There is something reminiscent of Rosa majalis in Rosa x suionum (pubescence on young shoots, brownich red wood...). In my opinion, it doesn't look like an alba, neither a centifolia, so my guess is that the rose currently known as 'Minette' might not be the original or (as it oftens happens so) the original classification was a bit loose, if i may say.
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What this rose does resemble is "Jeremiah Pink" from High Country Roses. JP is a found rose from Fairmont Cemetery in Denver. It could surely have been brought to North America from Scandinavia and found its way to Denver. JP in my view also does not resemble an alba. It does give one profuse flowering in spring and makes a rather attractive shrub the rest of the season. I have it planted along the property line which in my view is the best use of it.
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You're lucky if it makes an attractive shrub! in my climate (french Jura) the blooms, indeed, ball to the point where you only get a few flowers to open each year and as for the shrub, it doesn't do well enough to be of ornamental value out of blooming time: the growth is rather stiff, not really dense nor of elegant habit and the foliage too scarce in my opinion.
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The blooms don't ball for me at all. As for the shrub, by no stretch of anyone's imagination can my yard be described as landscaped. JP grows and grows and grows into a large shrub of I would say medium density which provides adequate screening between two yards and the foliage is a rather attractive (to me) grass green color. The leaflets are smaller, rounder and lighter in color than typical greyish green alba foliage. I prune once a year after flowering. JP will tolerate pruning and will blithely grow back from a hard prune. I have found that removing a third or even slightly more of the long and flexible canes won't compromise the next year's flowering.
I truly do not know if my JP is or is not really 'Minette' or "Banshee". The HCR catalogue suggests that it might be. I do suspect that "Banshee" must have been an introduced rose, and not a spontaneous hybrid.
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