'Geheimrat Duisberg' rose reviews and comments

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'Geheimrat Duisberg' rose Reviews & Comments

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Discussion id : 91-196 most recent 1 FEB 19 SHOW ALL

Initial post 29 FEB 16 by HMF supporting member

Michael Garhart

Reply #1 of 19 posted 1 MAR 16 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

I have P. Svoboda's book Beautiful Roses open in front of me and the illustration by J. Kaplicka shows a very thorny stem. My foundling ''Sunsprite' has smooth stems with no prickles. What are the stems of your rose like, Jacekk in Poland?	REPLY

Reply #2 of 19 posted 1 MAR 16 by HMF supporting member

Michael Garhart

Golden Rapture is similar in concept to Golden Ophelia, Johanna Hill, etc. Same concept, similar lineages. GR is not a dark gold or chrome yellow. It is lighter.

"The colour is, however, somewhat variable, and is often rather pale."

It was a chrome yellow. Among the first, but it did not have the brightness or lasting qualities of the yellows descending from it.

A post card of it:

http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/JAD-PC53-Rose-Golden-Rapture-Postcard-/361472624119?hash=item54297285f7

Lighter chrome yellow, longer petals. Tips becoming whitened. Less petals.

Reply #4 of 19 posted 3 MAR 16 by jacekk

Michael,Im sorry but you are wrong. Your photo from ebay does not show Geheimrat Duisberg (Golden Rapture).My tihck bush GR comes from the nursery Polish breeder Boleslaw Wituszynski. It grows from 1960.Is an authentic variety,see description colour HMF. Deep yellow. By the way,my photos are slightly tinted.	REPLY

Reply #5 of 19 posted 3 MAR 16 by HMF supporting member

Michael Garhart

I am not trying to disrespect.

Nurseries have historically mis-labeled.

I was an inventory manager for a massive wholesale nursery ($25M of product per year) for many years. Even someone as strict as me cannot control what workers, salespeople, and so on, do with the product. Or someone in production produced a product because production produced something it is not. It literally happens all the time.

Nurseries are quite prone to this, because they have limited windows of times for things, based on the season. So, there are typically huge pushes to get everything done in short time spans.

For the past few years, both Home Depot and Lowe's have received mis-labeled roses from extremely reputable producers. Scarlet Flower Carpet as Red Flower Carpet, Dream Come True as Honor, Yellow Flower Carpet as Amber Flower Carpet, or Red Ribbons as Red Bank's Rose.

It happens all of the time.

In regards to this rose, no yellow was that deep or rich at that time (1933). This rose was used to produce roses that eventually became that deep and rich. The yellow HTs it produced were known for their long petals, chrome tone, elongated stems, and lime-y. Spek's Yellow, Golden Masterpiece, King's Ransom... and so on. It took several decades to get a gold that strong from Golden Rapture.

In other words, it isn't historically possible.

Reply #6 of 19 posted 3 MAR 16 by jacekk

Pernetiana roses,such as GR, is in the thirties they had already fixed the yellow color, Michael.This is no longer the first HTs.If you have the opportunity to read description of this rose in the Australian newspaper "The Argus", 1938 year.	REPLY

Reply #8 of 19 posted 3 MAR 16 by HMF supporting member

Michael Garhart

Reply #3 of 19 posted 3 MAR 16 by jacekk

Reply #7 of 19 posted 3 MAR 16 by jacekk

Well,old perennial stems have little spikes. But young several years of growth have a smooth stem. Flowers are similiar but Sunsprite this floribunda.Blooms flowers in clusters.It blooms a long period.Meanwhile,Golden Rapture an old hybrid teas.Blooms briefly 2-3 Times per season.And usually one flower on the shoot.The smell is weaker than Sunsprite (Friesia). In opposition to the list has a very shiny.

Reply #9 of 19 posted 3 MAR 16 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

Jacekk, the bud photo you uploaded today, screams 'Sunsprite' to me. Take a look at the bud photos of 'Sunsprite' that members Darksome, Labrador, Seil and Jay-Jay have contributed.

Later edit. I hadn't seen your thorny photos. These do seem the same as the 1965 painting that I have just uploaded. There are similarities in the two buds in the painting also. However, the form of the open bloom is different. This is all most interesting.

Another edit. Your rose has been growing since 1960. It cannot be 'Sunsprite 1973. (unless there has been a real muck-up!)

Reply #10 of 19 posted 4 MAR 16 by jacekk

Which is which? ;-)
First from the left: Sunsprite,Kings Ransom,Berolina and Golden Rapture.
We must remember that it is a living organism.There are no two identical copies of a single variety. Therefore comparison is not entirely reliable.The appearance of a particular copy depends on the conditions in which to grow.
I am thirty years cultivate roses.The collection,among others have dozens of very old varieties of hybrid tea.Roses inherited from my grandfather gardener and he in turn inherited from his father.It is unlikely that everyone is wrong about the naming varieties of roses.
By the way,i sent new pictures of stems and flowers of my Sunsprite (In Poland we call it "Friesia")

Reply #11 of 19 posted 4 MAR 16 by HMF supporting member

Jay-Jay

In my opinion, Your Friesia is looking more like Lichtkönigin Lucia. Never had any red in my rose, not even in the bud phase, see my comment at: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.276341&tab=32	REPLY

Reply #12 of 19 posted 4 MAR 16 by HMF supporting member

Michael Garhart

I really don't have time for your easter egg hunt game. Seriously. Definitely not King's Ransom, anyway.

I skip about 90% of rose ID issues that I see due to this issue. Too much trouble and ego. In one instance, I found one person on another gardening site that was offended here, because I told them the correct ID of a fairly common rose in my area. Like, why? I'd rather not even attempt to help, let them carry on thinking they are growing something they are not.

I can see effort being warranted in the case of some OGR, tea, re-names, and foundlings. It is worth the invested effort to try to investigate. But this is just silly.

Reply #13 of 19 posted 4 MAR 16 by jacekk

Dear Sir. Do you have permissions international rose judge to issue such categorical verdicts? In a situation where so many varieties are divided only subtle differences,such courts are very sensitive. The more that we see only ones photos. P.S. Despite my age Im wrong often. Kinds regards Jack P. Kondratowicz jacekk741@gmail.com	REPLY

Reply #14 of 19 posted 5 MAR 16 by HMF supporting member

Michael Garhart

Reply #15 of 19 posted 30 MAR 17 by Puns 'n' Roses

Seeing as there are very few photos of Golden Rapture a.k.a. Geheimrat Duisberg available, I thought you all might be interested in the photos Sangerhausen has.
If you use the search form at
http://datenbank.europa-rosarium.de/genbank.php
and enter Geheimrat Duisberg (or enter Golden Rapture, but then you have to check the checkbox "in Synonymen suchen" which means to search for synonyms as well), you find two photos of Golden Rapture and two more of Climbing Golden Rapture.
I am not going to embark on the discussion of the topic, on one hand because I have never seen Golden Rapture "in natura" myself, and on the other hand because I find two grown men fighting about the identification of a flower on the internet highly amusing :) It's a sort of 21st century knight-tournament-thing. So, Patricia and I can lean back and enjoy.

"En garde! Prêts? Allez!"

*chuckle*

Reply #16 of 19 posted 30 MAR 17 by HMF supporting member

Michael Garhart

Yes, those photos match. Elongated petal type, thin petal midribs, typical yellow Pernet leaves and stems, and pigmentation more susceptible to UV exposure. Golden Rapture is similar to a common older yellow HT sometimes sold here in the US, 'Eclipse'. Except 'Eclipse' is slightly different and a little slimmer in many proportions. But similar categorically.

Only a few yellows have the thickening of the petal midribs. With Sunsprite and a very few other yellows, if you run your finger over the petal, the midrib where the petal attaches to the hip is raised and thicker than the rest of the petal.

As amusing as this may be, it is actually quite frustrating. HMF is a resource to the entire world. Being sold a mis-ID'd rose after waiting a season or so is quite depressing and frustrating. People use HMF to find a roses identity, and businesses use it as a resource. If I walked into Heirloom Roses today, and asked to look at HMF, they would pull it up instantly and let me see a page of it from a rose in question in their greenhouses. And as I stated above, even when trying to help, people get really defensive for no real reason, which really doesn't help HMF as a tool and resource for the world.

Also, a lot of volunteers here spend many hours on identifying roses from the 1600-early 1900s. Sort of the dark era of rose record keeping. Aiding each other goes a lot farther than offensive debate. The winner should be the common public. Especially as time goes on, and more nurseries close, less and less odd or older roses are sold. So these random roses appear in old homes, in abandoned lots, and so on, as relics in a time gone by, with no name. So they come here. Naturally.

Reply #17 of 19 posted 30 MAR 17 by Puns 'n' Roses

I hope you didn't get the impression that I didn't appreciate the effort people here on HMF make to identify and un-mis-identify old roses. On the contrary, I admire it. (For me, it was an adventure to identify the five roses that came with the house - and they're all modern.) And if I can, I want to help. That's why I posted the Sangerhausen link.

Thank you for your quick and interesting response. I've added Golden Rapture to the list of roses I'm going to take photos of when I'm in Sangerhausen this summer. And I might start rubbing yellow petals to feel for a midrib - people who see me with roses think I'm crazy anyway :)

Reply #18 of 19 posted 30 MAR 17 by HMF supporting member

Michael Garhart

Plants are sensory explorations after all :D I am sure there is a sub-level of purgatory for plant lovers ;] And if there isn't, there will be when Dickson's rose codes become publicized in another plane of existence, lol.

I hope to visit Europe some day. I'd like to see the gardens in Germany, Italy and the UK. And then visit Norway, point to random people, and ask if I'm their cousin... in American English lol.

Reply #19 of 19 posted 1 FEB 19 by HMF supporting member

goncmg

Nailed it. In college I used to work at a department store (now part of Macy's). After Christmas people would come in all the time with clothing that clearly had JC Penney or Woolworth tags sewn into the clothing. But the clothing was in a Lazarus box. So "obviously" we were the ones making the error by not accepting the return. Seems this happens with roses a lot. Clearly the pics are Sunsprite and further down the only one that is probably correct is Berolina.