'Chun Shui Lu Bo' rose reviews and comments

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'Chun Shui Lu Bo' rose Reviews & Comments

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Discussion id : 122-465 most recent 12 DEC 20 SHOW ALL

Initial post 5 JUL 20 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

This rose is really very European looking to me, just like an old Tea Rose. Does anyone know its provenance, beyond being collected by Dr. Ueda?. Is it really from China? Even though ThomasR's rose is blush-coloured, the earliest photo here from John Hook is very reminiscent of 'Mrs. Herbert Stevens' in form and colour.	REPLY

Reply #1 of 18 posted 5 JUL 20 by ThomasR

Hello HubertG, I was just trying to figure out if the rose I am growing was Chun Shui Lu Bo. The pictures I posted showed the first flower of an own-root rose, so it may be early for conclusions... That said, I was looking at the Blush Maman Cochet pictures and references, and I can't help thinking it might be my rose. The 1918 reference depicts waxy petals, which is quite what I felt. A lot of them. Also, the inner sepals were very ornamental when they opened, velvety tender green. Very distinctly red new growth. The scent reminded me of Honey/ Heliotrope, not overpowering. What do you think ?

Reply #2 of 18 posted 5 JUL 20 by ThomasR

I had two logographic descriptions of Chun Shui Lu Bo automatically translated, and both said (in French) "getting red when half-open", maybe referring to blushing ? I do not grow Mrs Herbert Stevens, but I'll post pictures as soon as the buds open. Also, there is a location mentioned in the description page. Best regards, Thomas.	REPLY

Reply #3 of 18 posted 5 JUL 20 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

Hi ThomasR,
If it's a very young plant then it might not produce typical flowers yet so, like you say, perhaps too soon to be conclusive. However, my first impression is that it isn't 'William R. Smith'/'Blush Maman Cochet'. I have a very young cutting-grown plant of that with a bud on it, so I'll post a photo of that tomorrow to compare. I wouldn't say that 'W. R. Smith' smells like honey and heliotrope. It has a scent similar to 'Maman Cochet' to my nose, only weaker. Not very strongly scented at all.
When you say that you are trying to identify this rose, did it come mislabelled from a nursery or was it saved from someone's garden?

Reply #4 of 18 posted 5 JUL 20 by ThomasR

Thank you HubertG, I'll look at your pictures. I wouldn't qualify my rose's scent as strong either. I ordered it from Mr and Mrs Hook's roseraie, I think there are only two nurseries in France selling own-root roses. Actually I was trying to identify what it could be in the case it wouldn't be Chun Shui Lu Bo, out of curiosity. The first flower seemed different than the few existing pictures but I couldn't be sure. Recently I've been wondering if a young plant was just a lighter version (less color, less scent, less petals...) of itself. I'm thinking of how one can look like one parent at a young age, and then another one. I should search for articles or topics about that.

Reply #5 of 18 posted 5 JUL 20 by HMF supporting member

Margaret Furness

A few comments: many Tea roses vary in colour (and petal number) with the season.
If Dr Ueda says he collected it in China, I see no reason not to accept that. Presumably la Roseraie du Desert has some reason for saying that what they sell is the rose he collected
Tipsy Imperial Concubine (for example) is a rose collected in China which some people think looks like it has some HP in its breeding. Roses travelled from China and Japan to Europe: why wouldn't the exchange, and breeding experiments, have been two-way?

Reply #6 of 18 posted 6 JUL 20 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

I wasn't implying that the rose in question isn't the rose collected in China by Dr. Ueda or that Roseraie du Desert wasn't selling Dr. Ueda's rose. I was just wondering if it might have been an old European Tea Rose brought to China at some time in the 19th century and having lost it's original name there at some point long ago was renamed with a Chinese name (whether correct or not).	REPLY

Reply #7 of 18 posted 6 JUL 20 by HMF supporting member

Margaret Furness

Reply #8 of 18 posted 6 JUL 20 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

No worries. I should have asked is it really a Chinese rose rather than "is it really from China?". Also, to clarify, I don't think it's 'Mrs. Herbert Stevens' either, just that it reminded me very much of that rose, which led me to think it might have been a European rose in the first place.	REPLY

Reply #13 of 18 posted 20 JUL 20 by ThomasR

I have gathered some pictures of the the last buds of this rose plus the opening of the second flower since I planted it, prickles (only here and there on this rose, but large and remaining pink) and leaves (staying red/purple for quite a long time, then getting slightly glossy as they turn green ; thinly red-bordered). Concerning the flower, it doesn't look far from the first one in Spring, only larger. Some pearl color, mauve blush, pink marks and a crepe texture on the outer petals. Still a light honey scent to me. Less green shades. I am not sure the bud could be qualified as long. Also the last bud is showing more simple sepals.
Do you see a resemblance between my rose and your Blush Maman Cochet ?
Best regards, Thomas.

Reply #14 of 18 posted 21 JUL 20 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

There is certainly a similarity but that doesn't mean it is the same of course. I've noticed that W. R. Smith/Blush Maman Cochet most usually has a reddish-brown colour cast to the flower stems as the flower opens. Yours seem to be just green. W.R. Smith often balls in wet weather and I've never seen it set a hip. Maybe leave one of your flowers to see if it sets a hip. If it does, it probably isn't W. R. Smith/Blush Maman Cochet.

Reply #15 of 18 posted 21 JUL 20 by ThomasR

Reply #16 of 18 posted 21 JUL 20 by HMF supporting member

Margaret Furness

The receptacle (at the base of the bud) of Maman Cochet has been described as a saucepan on a stick. The sides of the receptacle of your rose taper much more smoothly - not square. Best just to use the name it came with. It's a lovely rose.	REPLY

Reply #17 of 18 posted 21 JUL 20 by ThomasR

Thank you Margaret for checking the pictures ; I see what you mean about the receptacles of W.R. Smith, on the pictures I see variations of a more rounded shape than my rose. I do appreciate the fact that the plant and its blooms look good and strong during these hot days. Best regards, Thomas.	REPLY

Reply #18 of 18 posted 12 DEC 20 by ThomasR

I didn't notice any hips this season ; fall rebloom but all the buds were cut off by the wind. Next Spring I will contact Mrs Hook and ask for her opinion.	REPLY

Reply #9 of 18 posted 6 JUL 20 by ThomasR

Thank you Margaret, I will still try to find information about the early stages of roses, grown from cuttings or grafted ; sometimes I notice things that intrigues me.
Neither was I questioning Mr and Mrs Hook's reliability. Mrs Hook has always been very patient and informative, I am aware that being able to purchase some of their findings is a luck ; I contacted Mrs Hook last month about the rose. The conclusion was the same : it is still young, and the slightly darker center I described was the only significative difference (I do not think I mentioned the petals count) ; I have to check for long buds.
I also have a question for both of you : who is Dr Ueda ?

Reply #10 of 18 posted 6 JUL 20 by HMF supporting member

jedmar

Reply #12 of 18 posted 6 JUL 20 by ThomasR

Reply #11 of 18 posted 6 JUL 20 by HMF supporting member

jedmar

Yes, this is quite possible. A number of European roses were acclimatised in China in the 19th century and I believe received Chinese names. If you look at the publication "Volatile Components in Chinese Roses", you will see a number of Chines roses which have components like Geraniol, Citronellol, Nerol in their fragrance, which is typical of Gallicas and their descendants, but not of Chinas and Teas. For example 'Cos Se Tian Xang', 'Fen Zhang Lou', 'Pu Tao Hong', 'Zi Yan Fei Wu'