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odinthor
most recent 3 days ago HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 4 days ago by odinthor
The missing line of the 1851 Horticulturalist quote is:

Roses, and for the past year encouraged a vi
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Reply #1 of 1 posted 3 days ago by jedmar
Quote completed, best thanks!
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most recent 4 days ago HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 5 days ago by odinthor
The Setigera ‘Mary Washington’ (also called 'Washington') was “grown as Estella (or Esther) Pradel in Florida, but we know that that is not the correct name” [Annual Catalog, Royal Palm Nurseries, 1899, p. 51].
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Reply #1 of 9 posted 5 days ago by jedmar
'Mary Washington' mislabeled as 'Esther Pradel'?
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Reply #2 of 9 posted 4 days ago by odinthor
I'm only relaying the quote!
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Reply #3 of 9 posted 4 days ago by jedmar
Just to make sure I understood the quote correctly!
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Reply #4 of 9 posted 4 days ago by odinthor
Yes, that's indeed what they're saying. And, when one goes through looks at the various literature (not necessarily here) about 'Esther Pradel' (or 'Estelle Pradel') over the decades, one indeed finds as time goes on a series of them (descriptions) describing a pure white vigorous, even rampant, one, which is obviously distinct from those about the chamois tinted dwarf original 'Esther Pradel'. How this came to be is mysterious (but mystery is our everyday provender in Old Roses).
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Reply #5 of 9 posted 4 days ago by HubertG
I'm pretty certain I've seen a photo of a spray Esther or Estelle Pradel in an American catalogue though I can't remember which one, but if my memory serves me correctly it was one from the South and was early 20th century. It might be worth you hunting for it.

Edited to add; it's in the 1905 Glen Saint Mary catalogue on page 45 as 'Estelle Pradel' ... but I'm in bed ;-)
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Reply #6 of 9 posted 4 days ago by jedmar
Photo and references added, thank you!
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Reply #7 of 9 posted 4 days ago by HubertG
You're welcome, jedmar, but thank you!
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Reply #8 of 9 posted 4 days ago by jedmar
Here's what might have happened: The noisette 'Euphrosine' by Goubault was available in USA from the 1850s. An article in JdR of 1880 compares this to 'Esther Pradel' - both having fawn and pink double blooms. The found rose "Mary Washington" is described both as a Noisette or a Setigera. Clearly, the latter rose cannot be from George Washington, there were neither Noisettes nor Setigeras in his time. So, do we have 'Euphrosine' morphed into 'Mary Washington' and 'Estelle Pradel'?
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Reply #9 of 9 posted 4 days ago by odinthor
That's a good and reasonable scenario! Thanks.
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most recent 6 days ago HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 6 days ago by odinthor
All things considered, I am inclining to think that the rose currently in commerce as the violet-rose colored 'Enchanter'/'Enchantress' is in actuality the -1837 China/Tea 'Abbé Mioland' (which was still around as such as late as 1927, and so could be a "foundling" 50 years later). The form, growth, and general behavior of the present rose is such as we might expect from a Tea or China rose of the 1830s-1840s, and is not in any way, shape, or form that of what would be accepted in 1903 as a Hybrid Tea, least of all by anyone in the florist trade.
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most recent 12 days ago HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 12 days ago by odinthor
Who precisely was Duchess of Brabant in the late 1860s, when a good handful of plants were named after her? The Duchess that had been became queen in 1865 when husband Leopold, Duke of Brabant, became King of the Belgians. Their son who became Duke of Brabant at that time was very young, was unmarried, and died in 1869. Or are we to assume that everything named 'Duchesse de Brabant' dated back to pre-1865?

Perhaps it would be of interest for me to add: The Duchess was being commemorated rather frequently in the mid to late 1860s: 1864 brought us introduction of a bicolor Carnation of the name. In 1867, we find mention of a Strawberry named ‘Duchess de Brabant’; and Achimenes ‘Duchesse de Brabant’ in the same year; a Pear, a Rhododendron, a Begonia as well, and methinks I ran across a Lilac of the name too in the era. 1869 brought us a Pyrethrum ‘Duchess of Brabant’, from Salter of Hammersmith. It seems to have been a time ripe for Horticulture interesting itself in a Duchesse de Brabant.
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