HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 4 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 4 days ago by odinthor
Who precisely was Duchess of Brabant in the late 1860s, when a good handful of plants were named after her? The Duchess that had been became queen in 1865 when husband Leopold, Duke of Brabant, became King of the Belgians. Their son who became Duke of Brabant at that time was very young, was unmarried, and died in 1869. Or are we to assume that everything named 'Duchesse de Brabant' dated back to pre-1865?

Perhaps it would be of interest for me to add: The Duchess was being commemorated rather frequently in the mid to late 1860s: 1864 brought us introduction of a bicolor Carnation of the name. In 1867, we find mention of a Strawberry named ‘Duchess de Brabant’; and Achimenes ‘Duchesse de Brabant’ in the same year; a Pear, a Rhododendron, a Begonia as well, and methinks I ran across a Lilac of the name too in the era. 1869 brought us a Pyrethrum ‘Duchess of Brabant’, from Salter of Hammersmith. It seems to have been a time ripe for Horticulture interesting itself in a Duchesse de Brabant.
most recent 8 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 8 days ago by odinthor
The statement in the Description section that it is a seedling of 'Triomphe du Luxembourg' is a misunderstanding of the 1836 Annales de Flore quote that it and two other roses are "children of the Luxembourg." The quote means that the three roses were raised (by Hardy) at the Luxembourg Palace gardens, not that they are seedlings from 'Triomphe du Luxembourg'.
Reply #1 of 3 posted 8 days ago by Nastarana
The HMF entry has this rose being raised by Francois Cels. Was it perhaps raised by either Hardy or Cels, and then introduced by the other?
Reply #2 of 3 posted 8 days ago by odinthor
Yes, that's how I construe the quote. Here's my translation: "“Flower medium-sized, charmingly colored pink with marbling; the bush blooms constantly and abundantly. These three roses [among which is ‘Cels Multiflore’], children of the Luxembourg, are being propagated in the establishment of the Cels Bros.”

"Children of the Luxembourg" essentially means "Hardy or one of his underlings raised them at the Luxembourg."
Reply #3 of 3 posted 8 days ago by jedmar
Agreed, parentage removed. In the case of 'Archiduchesse Thérèse Isabelle', one of the three roses mentioned in the reference, the attribution to Barbot as breeder by Gravereaux seems questionable too.
most recent 9 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 25 AUG 07 by george graham
The Rose Captain Phillip Green sold by Guillot in France is Bon silene
Reply #1 of 15 posted 25 AUG 07 by HMF Admin
We have 'Bon Silene' listed as a different rose. Can you provide a reference indicating these rose are the same ?
Reply #2 of 15 posted 28 AUG 07 by jedmar
It should not be the same rose; George Graham means that the rose Guillot is selling, is actually 'Bon Silène' not 'Captain Philip Green'. There are unfortunately many such impostors in commerce.
Reply #3 of 15 posted 28 AUG 07 by HMF Admin
Thank you for the clarification.
Reply #4 of 15 posted 1 JUL 08 by Eric Timewell
Two of your photos of Bon Silène and two of Captain Philip Green seem to be of an identical plant. All four photos have been contributed by Ami Roses.
It seems to me unclear that any of your photos of Captain Philip Green is correct. Paul Nabonnand, quoted on the site, lists it as cream, as do you. Yet all your photos are of a very pink rose. Another site has "long bud opening to cream with carmine," which does not accurately describe any of your photos.
You quote a source of 1910 saying Captain Philip Green is "cream colour, in the way of Marie van Houtte". Since Marie van Houtte was the seed parent of Captain Philip Green, the similarity may be more genetic than casual. Your own photo ID 42196 of Marie van Houtte shows the exact effect: overall cream-straw colour with darker-than-pink staining of the outer petals.
Reply #5 of 15 posted 4 FEB 12 by Darrell
I currently have a young Capt. Philip Green from Vintage Gardens--still in a container. How tall and wide does this rose grow in the ground? (I live about 30 miles northeast of San Francisco, very Mediterranean climate.)
Reply #6 of 15 posted 13 DEC 14 by AmiRoses
No, all four photos are not the same plant.
Bon Silène is more carmine pink and often shows a white stripe.
Captain Ph. Green is more of a cream base and never has this white stripe.
The Buds are really cream with touches of carmine.
Reply #7 of 15 posted 13 DEC 14 by Patricia Routley
The photos from Laikanl and Mulino san Genesio both show white stripes and therefore are likely to be 'Bon Silene'. If it is OK with them, I'll move the photos shortly.
Reply #8 of 15 posted 27 JUL 19 by scvirginia
I'm late to this party, but none of these photos fits the description of a cream or light yellow rose with a light yellow, carmine-shaded bud. I agree that they do look like 'Bon Silène'.

Reply #9 of 15 posted 28 JUL 19 by Patricia Routley
I guess five years is more than adequate time for Laikanl and Mulino san Genesio to reply. I have reassigned their photos at least, to Bon Silene.
Reply #10 of 15 posted 28 JUL 19 by jedmar
The rose in L'Hay is also incorrectly labeled, but it is not pink enough to be 'Bon Silène'
Reply #11 of 15 posted 28 JUL 19 by scvirginia
I agree that those photos don't look like 'Bon Silène'. It looks more like a Pernetiana to me. Would it be a good idea to have a separate record for "Captain Philip Green- in commerce"?

Reply #12 of 15 posted 9 days ago by odinthor
Reply #13 of 15 posted 9 days ago by scvirginia
I have created an "in commerce as" record, and moved the photos.

There are quite a few gardens claiming to have 'Captain Philip Green', and I would love to know if any of them have the original rose, or are they all 'Bon Silène', or this pretty HT-ish imposter? To me, the coloring of the latter resembles 'Shot Silk'...
Reply #14 of 15 posted 9 days ago by odinthor
Mine appears to be 'Bon Silène' (which I don't regret having!).

Do we know when/where/who started the distribution of 'Bon Silène' as 'Captain Philip Green'? (And same question for the origin of the HT/Pernetiana imposter.) If anyone has a full run of the Combined Rose List, one could at least see when 'Captain Philip Green' started being mentioned as available (and by whom) . . . unless it was already available when that publication started to appear.
Reply #15 of 15 posted 9 days ago by jedmar
'Captain Philip Green' is listed in the Guillot catalogue of 2000, but not in 1997.
most recent 11 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 11 days ago by odinthor
Filling out the 1872 quote from Gardener's Monthly: "We have Mr. Henderson's new Rose Bella in bloom, and think it does not at all compare with this."

The "this" is this case is Damaizin's Tea 'Mlle. Rachel'.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 11 days ago by jedmar
Thank you!
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